The Strange Attractor
The Lab Manual: Navigating the Challenges of Building Lab Space with Aaron Budai from Amicus | #10
Prepare to be schooled by the lab virtuoso himself, Aaron Budai from Amicus Labline, as he takes us under his wing, imparting wisdom on the subtleties of lab creation. This episode promises to equip you with the knowledge needed to navigate the nuanced landscape of lab design, avoiding the dreaded pitfalls that often besiege the unwary as they venture out on their lab-building journey.
Imagine a laboratory space so flexible it evolves with your company's growth, a place where innovation isn't just nurtured but explodes into being. That's the future Aaron envisions, and throughout our discussion, we unravel the strategies that go into creating such dynamic environments. From the critical role of mechanical engineering to the transformative power of biophilic design, we stitch together a vision of lab spaces that are not only functional but inspiringly beautiful. It's a masterstroke in design thinking, challenging the sterile norms and championing labs that set the stage for groundbreaking work.
As we close this enlightening chapter, we peek into the property crystal ball, observing the post-pandemic trends that have driven investor interest in the PC2 lab market. It's a brave new world where investment and innovation entwine; who knows, maybe this is signalling a golden era for Australian science and biotech.
For those eager to join the ranks of the lab construction savvy, Amicus has an upcoming 'Building Better Labs' webinar series that is well worth checking out, the Laboratory Design and Construction Australia – Ideas Exchange Group, designed as a community hub for those looking to learn and share information about the art and science of building lab spaces.
For more information on Amicus, check out the links below:
Still Curious? Check out what we're up to:
Or sign up for our newsletter to keep in the loop.
This experimental and emergent podcast will continue adapting and evolving in response to our ever-changing environment and the community we support. If there are any topics you'd like us to cover, folks you'd like us to bring onto the show, or live events you feel would benefit the ecosystem, drop us a line at hello@colabs.com.au.
We're working on and supporting a range of community-led, impact-oriented initiatives spanning conservation, bioremediation, synthetic biology, biomaterials, and systems innovation.
If you have an idea that has the potential to support the thriving of people and the planet, get in contact! We'd love to help you bring your bio-led idea to life.
Otherwise, join our online community of innovators and change-makers via this link.
Prepare to be schooled by the lab virtuoso himself, Aaron Budai from Amicus Labline, as he takes us under his wing, imparting wisdom on the subtleties of lab creation. This episode promises to equip you with the knowledge needed to navigate the nuanced landscape of lab design, avoiding the dreaded pitfalls that often besiege the unwary as they venture out on their lab-building journey.
Imagine a laboratory space so flexible it evolves with your company's growth, a place where innovation isn't just nurtured but explodes into being. That's the future Aaron envisions, and throughout our discussion, we unravel the strategies that go into creating such dynamic environments. From the critical role of mechanical engineering to the transformative power of biophilic design, we stitch together a vision of lab spaces that are not only functional but inspiringly beautiful. It's a masterstroke in design thinking, challenging the sterile norms and championing labs that set the stage for groundbreaking work.
As we close this enlightening chapter, we peek into the property crystal ball, observing the post-pandemic trends that have driven investor interest in the PC2 lab market. It's a brave new world where investment and innovation entwine; who knows, maybe this is signalling a golden era for Australian science and biotech.
For those eager to join the ranks of the lab construction savvy, Amicus has an upcoming 'Building Better Labs' webinar series that is well worth checking out, the Laboratory Design and Construction Australia – Ideas Exchange Group, designed as a community hub for those looking to learn and share information about the art and science of building lab spaces.
For more information on Amicus, check out the links below:
Still Curious? Check out what we're up to:
Or sign up for our newsletter to keep in the loop.
This experimental and emergent podcast will continue adapting and evolving in response to our ever-changing environment and the community we support. If there are any topics you'd like us to cover, folks you'd like us to bring onto the show, or live events you feel would benefit the ecosystem, drop us a line at hello@colabs.com.au.
We're working on and supporting a range of community-led, impact-oriented initiatives spanning conservation, bioremediation, synthetic biology, biomaterials, and systems innovation.
If you have an idea that has the potential to support the thriving of people and the planet, get in contact! We'd love to help you bring your bio-led idea to life.
Otherwise, join our online community of innovators and change-makers via this link.
Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation hub and biotechnology co-working lab based in Melbourne, australia. I'm your co-host, sam Wines, and alongside my co-founder, andrew Gray, we'll delve deep into the intersection of biology, technology and society through the lens of complexity and systems thinking. Join us on a journey of discovery as we explore how transdisciplinary innovation, informed by life's regenerative patterns and processes, could help us catalyze a transition towards a thriving future for people and the planet. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Strange Attractor. This week we sat down with Aaron Budai from Amicus Labline. Amicus is. Hello and welcome.
Speaker 1:This week we sat down with Aaron Budai from Amicus Labline and Amicus Amicus. Labline does labs, amicus does office space, so they design and construct those sorts of spaces. So we reached out to them way back when we first started with our lab and asked if they'd be keen to give us some free benches, and obviously they did not. But what they did do was give us a lot of mentoring and advice and support with building our lab to ensure that we um, I just guess made the right decisions. And off the back of you know one or two years of having this relationship, um, we ended up working with them, I guess, on the Notting Hill site that we've got that'll be opening up in a month and a half. So, yeah, they helped, I guess, orchestrate and pull all that together. So, instead of Sam and Andrew building it from scratch by hand, there's a team of 30 to 40 contractors on site every day working a way to make this new site and it's going to be something that's really, really special.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we thought we'd sit down with Aaron, just given all the awesome advice he's given us over the years, and we thought we'd share it so that anyone who's looking to build a lab or would like some thoughts around what might be the next steps, what to keep an eye out for when looking for a space to consolidate and have you know whether it's PC2 space, clean room, office space, whatever. This is kind of the podcast for you, so in it we'll go through some key sort of things that you want to be paying attention to. That will just save you so much time, money and stress if you don't consider these at the onset. Yeah, oh, enjoy this conversation with aaron from amicus lab line are we doing here?
Speaker 1:now pretty pretty much, or close to we're yeah, we're. So I think, is this comfortable? This is comfortable, I kind of like leaning back in the chair 80, 90% full. So there's maybe four benches that are still vacant and that only happened recently. So Alt Leather and Cimex they ended up graduating. So one went to Jumar Bioincubator, one went to Monash Innovation Hub I can't remember exactly what the name was down there. I mean, both just left because you know they needed equipment and they're their partners.
Speaker 1:So it seems like a natural progression, so unfortunate for us but fortunate for the ecosystem as a whole, that there's still a place they can go to keep, you know, going on that adventure and, yeah, they might end up coming back down to monash, obviously, because that'll be near their partners and that means they can have, you know, the platform access as well as maybe one or two benches that are 24 7 access.
Speaker 1:So it's a really interesting thing we're starting to see as companies grow is that you know they can consolidate but they can still tap into these different resources, and I guess that's what we're trying to say to these other partners. Isn't, you know, like there's a? There's there is a, a way to collaborate and work together, um, where you know, you know we might have members in in jumar and colabs or monash innovation and colabs, and the point being that being that we're a bit more flexible and 24-7 access, and then it just is a little bit easier to get in and out of and experiment with things, whereas if you might need that high sort of platform tech, which might be a couple of million dollars a piece, or some real specific, I guess, knowledge that comes from a professor or a partner, then to me that just makes total sense. Uh, so we'll see.
Speaker 1:See how that goes but, yeah, it's pretty full and we've got a couple of new people starting as well. Um so oncopass and onco innate, um so just two cancer diagnostic, one for prostate cancer and then the other for breast cancer, but can also be used for multiple other cancers.
Speaker 2:I'm meeting a company on Friday that looks like they've got the patent in Australia for materials that biodegrade in less than like clothing that biodegrades within less than 12 months.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Is it PHA based or is it kelp based? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I'll let you know on Friday.
Speaker 1:That's so fascinating. Are they Australian?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry, are they Australian? Well, he's Australian Chinese, but it sounds like it's already proven in the EU and North America. So I don't know whether he's just got the patent locally or how he relates to those other entities, but I'm really looking forward to meeting him on Friday.
Speaker 1:I'd be interested to know, from your perspective, if you've seen a shift towards more, I guess, innovation. That is, trying to be circular or bio-based, or trying to not just continue business as usual but experimenting with new ways of doing.
Speaker 2:If you have had many of those come through, I have, but I think that's what this podcast is really about is the new is those companies with new ideas and how they can begin to develop their ideas before they get into full-scale commercialisation. So I mean I see a fair few of those. I think broadly the kind of company that we have serviced. You know noting my stepfather started this stuff in about 1987, we've gone from seeing institutions like educational institutions being the major business that we, we support to uh to a much wider range of r&d that's done in australia now. That really used to go offshore pretty soon after it was after the initial design work was done. So I think that in itself is exciting, and I don't do a lot anymore in the educational space. We seem to do a lot more for private business, which in itself is fantastic.
Speaker 1:So, with that sort of transition, what do you think has driven that so to keep keeping things onshore? Do you think it's uh, government funding or more support what's driven people to?
Speaker 2:do. I think covid just shook the market completely. Um, that's my personal opinion and um, when I went to university showing my age here but when I went to university and studied economics and accountancy, everything was about globalisation. So people looked at what their core strengths were and they developed. The industry was driven to develop along those lines.
Speaker 2:In the last five years, we've seen this giant push towards um, domestically being able to be self-sufficient and to create, keep ip on shore, which is a massive shift, right like there was this whole thing about global markets 30 years ago. That just doesn't. It's not as relevant today, or it is as relevant, but there is a, there's a protectionist element to what we want to have in a smart economy in Australia. I mean, you could even say is you know, don't want to get all political, but Malcolm Turnbull, he was very big on that as well. He was very big on creating a smart economy and I think there's been R&d incentives and beyond that from state and national governments now for a little while yeah, things like um, like breakthrough, victoria, and then the national reconstruction fund.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously they have their issues, but I do see them as fundamentally a step in the right direction. It's just hopefully, yeah, there still is this big pattern that hasn't been fully broken about. A startup will do really well here, and then the next space is they obviously end up moving over to America. And it's interesting to think like, well, how could we potentially maintain like a head of operations or like the HQ here still, but then also have those satellites over in America, because there is a really good work-life balance here and I think I can't imagine there's any other reason, apart from the economic reason, to sort of go over there and set up shop at the moment, just given everything that's happening over there I mean I don't know how many brands we should talk about today, but ResMed, obviously, Sleep Apnea device was designed and developed in Australia.
Speaker 2:Their head office is now over in North America, but their innovation hub is this magnificent centre out at.
Speaker 1:You guys built that, didn't you?
Speaker 2:Norwest. Yeah, we're involved with some work over there at the moment, but it's a really, really impressive centre of excellence that they've got going on there. They acknowledge that one great idea commercially can be worth billions, so they've kept that centre of excellence here in Australia, which I think is great for Australia and Australian scientists, you know. So I think there will always be this glitter, excitement of moving to maybe somewhere more central in Asia or to America to set up as your hub. But I think you're right, there is a standard of living here, a quality of life that is very attractive. People want to work here and I think I'm going off subject a bit, but there's a real interest in making laboratories now, or life science environments, whatever you want to call them more appealing to graduates.
Speaker 2:There's an acknowledgement that there's a paper written a couple of years ago. I'm going to make a I'm scared I'm going to get the name of the author wrong but what it actually stated was a data scientist has an option. They can either it's a good example of somebody who can either find themselves in life sciences or in a laboratory per se or they can find themselves working for an investment bank. So you're competing for the same graduate, so you've got to create an environment that's attractive to those graduates. And certainly what you guys are doing here and what we're seeing at other sort of cutting-edge companies have acknowledged that and it's broad-based.
Speaker 2:People either get that, particularly if the science is central to what the organisation's looking to deliver on. If they understand that it's central to what they're looking to deliver on, they understand that it's the hub of the organisation, it's the heartbeat of the organisation and therefore the people who work in that space need to have the kudos and appreciation of what they're doing. I still see scenarios where it's a support function maybe it's a quality assurance arm of a food company, for example and they've got the lab hidden out the back and, quite frankly, they don't want to spend any money on it. I understand that it's an overhead in that scenario, but you've still got to get the right people right, so you've still got to be able to track the right kind of employee.
Speaker 1:I just find it so fascinating that in the life sciences a lot of the time the buildings that are made are so anti-life or just so unappealing from like. There's no biophilic or biomimetic design. I understand there's very stringent requirements that a lab has to meet, but it is interesting how there's a stereotype of what people think a lab has to look like and it does really feel like that's starting to be. At least the mold of that's starting to be broken a little bit and we're starting to see more colorful or creative things sort of starting to happen. At least.
Speaker 2:I know we're trying to push you in that direction with the uh, with the monash build, which I know you've got your own opinions on yeah, I love that build and um, you know anyone listening to this podcast who gets a chance to stick their nose into that colabs um hub when it's completed, I think, first week of july, end of june. It's worth a visit, um, I think I think generally. Uh, you're absolutely correct. You can put a desk anywhere, you can put a lab bench anywhere. You can choose what the environment's going to be like, the people working, obviously, um, if you have, if you require a controlled environment, which from which the person's doing the work in, um, you need to control airflow and the like. But you can choose the colours of the room, you can choose whether there's natural light, for example, and historically you know it was an afterthought, that kind of thing and it's not anymore.
Speaker 2:And I'm dealing with a laboratory up in Queensland at the moment and there's a tension between the CFO finance, of course and the scientists and it's a genetics-based business and the, I'm pleased to say I think design's going to win over because they acknowledge that they need to attract the right kind of talent.
Speaker 2:They will also attract the right kind of client if they have an attractive laboratory for which people come and see how they're working. I've seen scenarios actually down here in Victoria where a major brand has lost customers. It's a NADA certified laboratory but when the customers have come to do a site visit, they've walked into the lab and just shocked how just dated it looks. There's an expectation that if you're a tier one company looking for a testing lab, the testing lab's going to be providing an environment for their team members that is consistent with what you deliver to yours. So there's definitely a change and there will always be multiple tiers of company and multiple tiers of fit out. But I think the days of I think really really dated laboratories will more and more impact people's ability to attract good quality talent.
Speaker 1:Are you finding because Amicus Labline obviously affiliated with Amicus, so you're doing a lot of the time you are doing the co-working or like the, what do you call it office space as well as lab space? Are you finding that there is now more of a consideration of the interplay between the two? So how do these two relate to one another? How can we have the lab in a location with convenient, like breakout or huddle spaces within the lab and then maybe something adjacent, like? Are people starting to consider the whole environment, the work environment, as a single thing, or is it still quite segmented?
Speaker 2:It's an excellent question and it really depends on the organisation and how forward thinking the C-suite is.
Speaker 2:So and I think it goes back to my initial point where if the C-suite sees the laboratory as a profit centre, if it sees it's essential to its ability to make money, to attract and when I say make money that might not just be the technology they have, but being able to maybe hire the right talent to be able to develop ideas then it seems highly integrated.
Speaker 2:Where it is seen purely as a cost centre, it's a harder and it makes sense that it's a harder decision for the C-suite. It's obvious, right? So it's much harder when you need to spend let's call it a million dollars updating a laboratory space. If all you're doing is updating it to do what you did yesterday, to perform the same functions that you did last year and the year before. Then the CFO turns to the rest of the C-suite and says well, do you want to spend a million dollars updating the lab or do you want to spend a million dollars on sales and marketing? You know trialling in new markets, whatever, most C-suites will spend money. You know trying to grow the business, and that's understandable. But at some point it's a pinch at some point yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I imagine that wouldn't necessarily be the case for more tech-driven businesses like so those in deep tech, biotech, health tech, med tech, any of those fun words with tech after it. I imagine for them, given the nature of what they're doing, and especially those who are beginning to emerge, for them the lab would very much be the front and centrepiece. Right it is.
Speaker 2:And then the question becomes how much they want to spend and how long they think they're going to be at that particular site you know um, I mean, when we sat down we said we're going to this chat today. It's going to be pretty much focused on that, and oh, we're getting there we are getting there, it's a non-linear conversation I can see over there over there sweating about this is so off script yeah that's right.
Speaker 2:So, look, I think the hardest thing for people to do it doesn't really matter what stage of life the organisation is at is to sort of get their head around how long they think they're going to be in the current location, the next location, how long they think they're going to be in the current location, the next location, because you know the cost per square metre of the fit-out is easily five times the cost of probably let's call it four to seven times the cost of a fit-out of an office space. So when people are looking at the space they go well, how long a lease do I want to sign? And my initial comment normally is well, like, you need to sign a long enough lease to ensure you get a return on your investment. And it's very different to renting office space where you might be able to just go into either a rented office or I don't know just a place that's got a desk in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's way more generic. It's like wheat when you're competing with different types of wheat to make a pasta. It's very much a price thing. People can jump around and change suppliers. There's so much of it out there, whereas the labs are way more of a sticky sort of ingredient.
Speaker 2:That's right. And I mean I remember talking to you four years ago. You know like we're talking about. Was it four years ago? Oh gosh, uh, yes, it was four years ago. So we're talking about four years ago and you know like you guys were setting up. I mean, I was just so impressed with the idea of collabs and um, and we're sitting there and we were talking about, well, how long a lease have you signed? You told me the length of the lease, which wasn't very long. I think it was a one plus one plus one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, I'll let you say it, I wasn't going to say it and I guess the naive side of it is well a risk averse approach because, um, because, if things don't work out, you can get out of the lease.
Speaker 2:The downside, of course, was if you got kicked out of the site, you'd be throwing away an immense amount of investment of capital that had just been to create the environment that you needed, fit for purpose for the pc, your first pc2 labs, right, yeah? So going back to your original question, which was really around how much do people spend in those different tech spaces? The first question really tends to be well, how long do they think they're going to be there for? Because if they really believe that they're only going to be there for three years or five years, then everything should be done to just make it fit for purpose. It's when people start to establish that they're going to be there for seven to ten, they think, okay, you need to start designing something that is fit for purpose. Today there's growth capacity to grow in, and I'm not just talking about the amount of space that you're taking on, I'm also talking about particularly the mechanical solution, also the amount of power available to that, to that site.
Speaker 1:um, they're probably two of the key ones, so what's mechanical, if you could just run over that, assuming that someone might be slightly aware of it's like a lot of these people they know the, they know the tech inside out, but they not necessarily know the walls within which they're building their tech.
Speaker 2:Sure. So mechanical engineering is probably, in my mind at least, is the lead engineering discipline you need in designing a laboratory, and what that does is it controls your airflow, your air pressure, your humidity extraction. Air pressure, your humidity extraction should you require it, whether that be for fume or for dust. Your laboratory gas runs. All those mechanical tank lab runs so like if you've got argon.
Speaker 1:CO2 pipes or anything.
Speaker 2:That all falls under mechanical engineering engineering and it's a really key engineering element. Now, if you know that you're taking on a space that, um, you've currently got, let's call it, 100 square meters. There's two of you on day one, but you know you need 100 square meters because really, from a commercialisation perspective, you know that you're going to have five people in the room in six months' time and you're going to have an extra two fume cupboards. Then you really need to consider the amount of replacement air you're going to need to be pumped into I'm assuming a PC2 lab here, in a scenario where you're putting in two more fume cupboards or you have all the conditioned air you require in a room that previously had two people in it's going to need seven in it going forward. So all of that, a good mechanical engineer will collect all that information from you when you're doing your wish list on day one.
Speaker 2:I mean, we certainly had that issue with you guys at the Monash site trying to identify exactly how many fume cupboards you were going to do on day one, how many thoughts you would need in two years, three years, five years' time, and therefore we have the amount of makeup air that you need to put into that space and and it's a really you don't need to necessarily put in a system that is going to work at 100 on day one, but you need, like a capacity on day one. But you need to know that you can add on to it reasonably cost-effectively, as opposed to be tearing out systems to put in larger systems, because that mechanical solution will be the most expensive part of most laboratories built so if I'm reading between the lines there, it's over spec.
Speaker 1:If you're planning on growing in the long term in a space just due to the fact that inevitably, you will end up probably upgrading?
Speaker 2:yes, you will and and or over spec, and, or have discussions with your mechanical engineer about how you would grow from there yeah, so it's the.
Speaker 1:The assumption is that there is more space to grow or something that likes to become.
Speaker 1:It's not that you know you're in a steady state with what you're doing and and sustaining the current thing, it's that trajectory of growth.
Speaker 1:So that's almost, I guess as well. I guess it's it's you're gonna be mechanical involved and then obviously also a strategy team and everyone figuring all that out and finance, because it is a delicate balance right, and I guess that's kind of why CoLabs exists is because if companies they're going through the earlier stages, they can't necessarily invest in those like the long-term investment because they haven't actually raised that much money and hopefully we can help get them up to that point at which they can then go off and sort of build maybe their first lab by themselves, anywhere from 100 to 1,000 square. And I guess we kind of exist specifically to address this kind of problem. But I guess it's fascinating because inevitably the companies that we're supporting are going to get to that point where they need to know this sort of information and need to know what's going on from a mechanical perspective and understanding what to keep an eye out for. So you um, just to go back, to loop it back to where we were before. So you were saying mechanical is key.
Speaker 2:Uh, we need to make sure that there's plenty of amperage to the site yeah, they're the two key things and the and and um, also um, the class of building that you're, that you're moving into. So, outside of the length of the lease, if you're um, if you're going to work with a fume cupboard, um, depending what toxins and whatever else that you're dealing with, um, if you have somebody's got a shed next door to the local school, it's unlikely that you'll be able to get that that space reclassified to a lab. It's more likely that you should be in a light industrial space in the first place and you don't really want to be putting a lab into a building that's not classified to be allowed to be a lab. Now, generally speaking, if you lease space in an industrial park which is already zoned for light class, for light industrial, it shouldn't be you will need to go through a certifier, but you will be able to get the building reclassed. I guess what I'm cautioning against is if, um, that scenario where somebody's trying to lease a small warehouse next door to a public park or uh, or uh, the local school or swimming pool or or whatever else, and and it's just, it's just a mistake for you to be leasing that space. There are better decisions that can be made. So I'd caution anyone who does that.
Speaker 2:So the other key thing of course I always think about is understanding what you're going to put down the sink. If you are putting toxins down a sink, then how do they need to be treated before they hit the sewer, and will you need a dilution pit? Could you get away with it? Well, if no one else knows what you're doing, well, maybe you do for a while, but when you get caught you're going to get fined. Well, if no one else knows what you're doing, well, maybe you do for a while, but when you get caught you're going to get fined.
Speaker 2:And if you go to a professional builder at any stage to help you with that work, they should be giving you that advice anyway. So there are a range of things you should be looking out for, at least be asking questions about, I think generally. Um and I can't remember whether we already touched on it if you find an old work shed, it's possible. It's like an old school building. There's not enough electricity power in it to run all of the scientific tech that you need, but a more modern. Did you need to upgrade the power on the first shed? No, we were sweet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unit 17, unit 20 here they've all been fine. I mean, you're obviously involved in it and it's an ongoing saga with, um, with broody still trying to sort out the um, the energy load over there, that being an old school in brunswick. Um, with one of our partners, impact neighborhoods, that we're looking at building more space there. We actually just started, um, the civic science foundation there again, so we've just leased space. I think we might be signing it today or tomorrow, uh, in one of the other buildings. But again, yeah, power being a major issue for us and we are trying to find a way to sort that out. And yeah, you can see how people could very easily burn through money making a mistake on either you know the power, the length of the lease, um, you know the class of the, all of these sorts of things. If you're making that kind of mistake early on, that can cost you so much in terms of expenses that were unforeseen.
Speaker 2:It's just dead money. That's the thing that bothers me about it and I talk to that a fair bit, like there are things to me, there are things that are worth spending money on that improve the environment which you work in. It's no different to you, know, if you're in an old house and you've got to spend money redoing the roof, well, you know you've got to redo the roof, but that's tens of thousands of dollars you just have to spend. But okay, the roof's better but you're not enjoying the space anymore, except for the fact that maybe you're not getting wet. If what you've got to do is spend tens of thousands of dollars getting the right amount of power to your warehouse, just so you can spend the other money to create the environment in which you want to work, I think it's dead money and I think good feasibility work up front can help erase some of that stuff. Like I'm dealing with. It seems like sort of sequencing genetic sequencing. It seems to be touching a few firms who are in that space at the moment. It's heavy power load sequencing, genetic sequencing. It seems to be touching a few firms who are in that space at the moment. It's heavy power load and there's they're. Probably that's a big part of what they do and mechanical infrastructure is another big part of it, just in terms of it's got to be unidirectional flow.
Speaker 2:But where I wanted to go with this, I met a startup, um, uh, maybe two weeks ago, amazing phd student, she's got this brilliant idea and she, um, she's my new passion project after collabs collabs, you guys are no longer great far developed to be a passion project these days. But um, really want to help her out. And uh, she's got this block of land which has got a couple of buildings on it and she goes the five car parks. I'm going to take those car parks out and I'm going to build out the building. And I said, well, she's on a main road, across the road from a hospital. And I said I'm pretty sure the town planner's going to tell you there's a reason why those car park spots are there and they're not going to let you just get rid of the car park spots, and should just.
Speaker 2:This lady couldn't believe what I said. I could just see the shock on her face. But it's a great example of somebody just thinking this is perfect, I can do what I want on this land. Now that I've bought it, I'm going. Yeah, it's not going to be that straightforward. They're not going to let you. When there's no car parking space on on the main road and there's a the hospital parkings for the hospital across the road, they're going to want you to keep your car park spots, or at least you should be finding out before you.
Speaker 1:you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars buying this, buying this land right, so kind of checking your base assumptions when it comes to just because you own a thing doesn't mean you necessarily have the right to do what you think you can on it and that's based on the zoning, the amperage to site and a couple of other sort of factors.
Speaker 1:Is there anything else that you think? So this is obviously, at the very early stage, the feasibility. You're looking for land or you're looking for a warehouse to look at fitting out of space. Is there anything else that you think we haven't covered?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's sort of um. I dealt with an entity a little while ago that um, uh was dealing in I don't really want to get into the industry that it was in too much, but what they were getting delivery of. They needed their own loading dock right and they needed then access to and from the loading dock right and they needed then access to and from the loading dock without necessarily going through, uh, like the main, the guts of the, the of the broader of, of the larger um tendencies. They they needed to be coming directly off their, off their um, off their lab, and they're dealing with something particularly sensitive and it's a small thing, right, most people wouldn't think about it. Oh, I can have a loading dock and Well, no, sometimes, depending on what you're doing, access to goods in, goods out is a material issue for some labs in terms of what people want to see come in and out of the in.
Speaker 2:And out of the in out of the building. So it's another really good example of it. The other, the other really obvious one, is if you're building a lab, your ideal building is a warehouse. It's not a. It's not in a high-rise building, it's not in a. You need access to the air above you. You need to if you want to put a fume cupboard in. You need to be able to punch through the roof, not have to negotiate with the upstairs tenant about when and how you're going to do that.
Speaker 2:So if people are listening to us and they don't always we do end up sometimes in a high-rise building trying to do workarounds, or even a low-rise building on the ground floor. You really want to control the space above you and you really want a high ceiling because the likelihood is that you're going to want a mechanical solution that requires maybe a metre of space before your ceiling. So let's take a PC2 lab, let's assume a PC2 environment where obviously you've got a sealed ceiling, a non-porous sealed ceiling, and all your mechanical's got to be above that and below the roof line. Well, depending on what you're trying to do, you may need as much as a meter of space to run those mechanical solutions around and then have this, the um, and then be able to punch a fume cupboard through up into the atmosphere. And again, you know, when you punch it through you need to be three meters above the highest point of the of the roof line.
Speaker 1:So there, there are things that you need to think about that your mech engineer will know all about so just to riff on this, because this is a really big thing that we see constantly coming all the time. We have, um, super funds and owners of buildings coming to us, going let's turn this into labs, and they're there. I guess why is it really hard to turn an office space into a lab? Uh, especially when you're talking about that ceiling height, is it? It's so correct me if I'm wrong there the regular ceiling height of an office space, if you do that, um, put in that meter clearance, it kind of brings the roof really really low. Like can you even legally do?
Speaker 2:that I think you can probably get it in. It's just like you can work within less than a meter. It's just tough, you know. You're just making everything hard and generally there's a core that takes all the service runs right. So things like if you're going to have your mechanical services for okay, I'm going to go back a step, sure services for okay, I'm going to go back a step, sure.
Speaker 2:So, dealing with a site, at the moment the lab is on a middle floor of a about a 10-story building and we need fresh air to be to come into the pc2 lab. So it's not 100 fresh air for anyone thinking out there that just opening a window, yeah. Well, not so much that that there's a hepa filter going in and out or whatever, but more so that you never have 100 outside air going into an air conditioning unit. There's a recirculation of air within the space, but if you assume that there's let's call it, 50 of the air coming into the, into the mech unit for that lab, that's coming from an external source and then let's say that it is a a positively pressured room.
Speaker 1:So why would people want a positively pressured room?
Speaker 2:well, if, um, then because they don't want any air from the hallway to come into the room, right? So contamination, yes, right, okay, cool. So, like quite often we'll deal with particularly I was talking about genetic sequencing. They've got unilateral.
Speaker 2:They'll quite often have some rooms that they want positively pressured and then their dirtier labs can be negatively pressured, but they're all sitting within the same pc2 environment, if that kind of makes sense yeah so just think about the fact that from from the lab that is getting the clean air coming in, it's got to expel the air that's been through that lab and it's no use that air that's being expelled going out the same side of the building that you've just brought in the clean air, because then you're just going to recirculate it through. So all of a sudden you've got to get access from a building, you've got to get permission from a building owner to punch holes in two vertical walls, external walls. One side's going to take in the fresh air and one's going to expel the contaminated air. That's probably got to be pushed through a HEPA filter as well.
Speaker 1:And does it have to go up like a stack? Would it also block off windows?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you won't be allowed to put it through a stack. You're going to have to all work it in your ceiling. And so, because there will be some mechanical on the roof which will be there to service the whole building, the reality is you're not going to be able to use most of it because it's recirculating through the whole building, right? So the other thing is there's a whole and I probably should have said this first off there's a whole lot of fit out that's in an office space that you're not going to use. You're not going to use their mechanical system or you're only going to use their air conditioning system. For that percentage of your floor that's office space. So everything that's laboratory space on the assumption that it's not a dirty lab, so it's PC2 or above. You're going to be building a mechanical like an additional mechanical solution to sort that area. So it really is quite a messy solution.
Speaker 2:A lot of high-end meditech companies want to be in these high-rise buildings because, well, that's where their brand, that's where they need to be. But it's an expensive building. It's a really expensive building. So that's a great example of why not. And I think generally there's just so much of an office space that you're going to just demo to put in a lab, right that you're not going to be able to keep.
Speaker 2:And then you've got and you would have had this already. You would have had people come up to you and say, hey, caleb, yeah, I've got this space and da-da-da, and do you want to take it over? And then we get asked the way people spec suite an office space, they go, oh, maybe we can spec suite a lab. I say, well, the difference between university labs and commercial labs is university labs and csiro probably falls into the same category. They will be established for multi-use so they will put in you know, four or five different laboratory. Gas runs into every room and every room will have a fume cupboard in it and every room will have dangerous goods, multiple dangerous goods cabinets. In the commercial world that's just way too expensive. So you actually choose what services you put in.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that sounds like a dream for us but there's no way.
Speaker 2:I don't know how much more expensive that would have been it's nuts right A couple of extra grand a square meter you know, like you just have to look at the cost of you know, stainless steel piping or whatever for some of the some of the lab gases, and it's just, it just doesn't make any sense. So when I get asked about spec suiting a laboratory, the first thing that comes to mind for us is well, you have to tell us what you're going to tell tenants they have to install versus what's going to be there for them on day one. And we've had this conversation with you guys, right.
Speaker 1:Constantly yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's really, really hard because for some tenants, there are going to be things that if you don't provide, it's a non-starter. There are some tenants and I think we had this conversation with you guys that require a generator or that require a cool room or require a walk-in freezer, and if you don't have those things on site, then it's simply, you know, it's it's. It's not a suitable location for them.
Speaker 2:But for you guys to put in you know know, $80,000, $100,000 walk-in freezer that people may or may not use or may use because it's there instead of their own freezers that you're paying for it just doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:It has been interesting having to essentially kind of try to do I guess, to use the words that you've used like a university CSIRO light. So it's like what are 20% that will get you 80% of the way, and then that is kind of what we're designed to and support, whilst then also still providing the option for people to modularise it or customise it based on their needs, which is just a whole other level of difficulty, whilst trying to also do it in a price competitive sort of manner. But I think we've done a. I think we've done a nice job.
Speaker 2:You've done a great job. I wouldn't be without all your help. You've done a great job. No, no, you have, and I know your space well. I can't wait to show it off, quite frankly, and I'm sure you'll be. I know it's your space, but you'll be getting many amicus lab visitors through there.
Speaker 1:I'd say it's a joint project. You know it's a shared baby. I noticed just you saying that made me have a giggle about seeing a photo of you on the slab up on the second story and just how stoked you were. That was great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look it's we kind of touched on it at the beginning, like how long Labline's been around for. But my stepfather started doing this in the mid-'80s, initially as furniture, and he's now 82. And I can't wait to bring him down and show him. I want him to come to the launch because he's it's a milestone moment.
Speaker 2:I think it's a really you've come to see some of our more innovative labs in the past and and you've taken from that and then stepped it up and said you want it to be an attractive workplace as well as an innovative space, and I think that's what's going to well. I know that's what's being delivered. So I've never seen a client that engaged in the colour scheme.
Speaker 1:Andrew couldn't care less. Just to clarify who's the pest from the client side.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, but yeah, I do think there's there's something to trying to be, you know, biophilic, biomimetic, trying to acknowledge the colors of the country or the place that you're from and trying to weave all of that into a building so that it feels like a representation of your environment. I feel like buildings in the past and the architecture of the past was really good at kind of bridging the human nature divide and making it seem, you know, one and the same, whereas I feel like, um, industrial revolution and the kind of way we've gone with with most of industrial sort of spaces and unfortunately science falls a lot into that. Um, you know, especially in the last 150 years, the spaces have become way more mechanized and and lifeless, so to speak. So it's been a really fun project trying to bring a bit more of that sort of well I think even the word homogenous right, you know, like it's been.
Speaker 2:It's become quite bland and homogenous and, um, a few years ago I haven't given him any kudos yet but my partner, who's a lot more creative than I, am my business partner, john Rogo a few years ago there was a school in Bondi and he made everything that always just been white, you know, or white with a black frame.
Speaker 2:He started to change it up and each room, each one of these different school labs, he may change the colour of the frames of the lab benches, right, and it was amazing the impact that had. And at the end of the day, you're trying to motivate kids to learn and it's very, very impactful. And we're now doing, you know, done it since multiple times and we're looking at a, talking to a school up at Noosa at the moment and certainly they've got some creative ideas and just trying to inspire are probably the word I'm looking for. I mean, he's on that journey with you, 100%. I'm the guy just going. Can we please just get this thing built? But between you, john and James, there's a lot of focus on colour schemes that I'm not used to quite seeing, but it will be certainly worth it. I bloody hope so, that's for sure it's been a lot of effort.
Speaker 2:I want to go back on something, and we're talking about the creative spaces and what's changed?
Speaker 2:There is a space that you've been down to at Port Melbourne Australian Road Research Board. I think they've changed their name now but they're still down there. You can Google Australian Road Research Board. I think they've changed their name now but they're still down there. You can Google Australian Road Research Board. I'm sure you'll find them. And the CEO of the organisation it was about five years ago now, he was instrumental in the design of that laboratory basically said you know, the lab is central to this business and there's not a place in that office space where you can't look into the lab and see what they're doing. And it's just, we still go there regularly. We still regularly take clients there because it's an inspirational space. You know, and that's five years old now, that space, and still to this day, you know, you walk in there and you go. People would love walking into work here.
Speaker 1:It definitely. I think it's a timeless sort of build that you've put into that space.
Speaker 2:And it was an old warehouse. If you saw what it looked like beforehand. It was an old warehouse, really the whole thing was a warehouse. Huh, so even that front section, the whole thing, the whole thing was a warehouse. So even that front section, the whole thing, the whole thing.
Speaker 1:There you go.
Speaker 2:I think it was a furniture warehouse and I'm going to guess the total space would be 3,000, 3,500.
Speaker 1:At least.
Speaker 2:The place is massive and the design of it is just magnificent and I think you can do that with labs.
Speaker 2:You can do that in science, you can make them really appealing and the integration between that and the office space. I think you know bouncing around again, I think that it's still a very traditional space labs when it comes to that. So when I try and talk to businesses about hot desking and not needing a dedicated desk for somebody to write up at when they're not working in the lab, that still can be quite a tough thing to get people's head around. Okay, yeah, because most other areas of office operations these days people are working from home two, three days a week or whatever. So the concept of hot desking is a lot more acceptable. But to try and explain in some environments to scientists that you don't need your own desk for the one hour a day that you're writing up, or two hours a day or the one day a week, but we can create this flexible environment which you can sit and stand in different places while you're doing that work, it's still harder than you may think to get the science community to think that way.
Speaker 1:Well, it's kind of worked here thus far and I don't know if that's just because of uh, they're forced to interact with the environment the way that we have kind of co-designed it to.
Speaker 1:I mean the whole, the whole structure of it has been to be flexible and supportive of innovation and trying to help encourage people to bump into each other and have conversations that might lead to something sort of happening like we've very much engineered the of innovation and trying to help encourage people to bump into each other and have conversations that might lead to something sort of happening like we've very much engineered the entire ecosystem and the space that we've got to facilitate dialogue and innovation and collaborative consumption, and it's been interesting to see that that is the culture that emerges based on this, the like, the build that you do, the infrastructure that you put in, and then obviously you know I would be remiss to not also speak to the way in which we try and operate as a business is quite different and a bit more relational, um, and collaborative, and then to me it makes sense that then what comes from that is a culture of collaboration and cooperation and and helping out and supporting one another, and I do really feel like that is the direction that innovation spaces that are bio-led will end up going in, as it feels like a much more natural way to innovate and collaborate.
Speaker 1:And I'd be really curious to sort of I don't know how I would even be able to gather data on this, but being able to observe different spaces that have different, I guess, configurations and how they, how they do innovate or how they relate look, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 2:Um, you've got an interesting scenario here where you've got a lot of very bright people working on independent projects, collaborating at different times, and it's a little bit, um humbling when you walk in here. I was waiting for you today, sitting there waiting to start and looking at all these extremely bright young people collaborate. It's really, really exciting. It made me think of something, though just like in organisations, unlike here, which is obviously multiple organisations working together, thinking the flexibility of a laboratory space to create innovation, so people can come together then go away, is something we're seeing. We're getting asked a lot more for today than maybe five years ago. I think that's moving quite quickly. So they say, okay, I need a PC2 environment, I need a fume cupboard in that PC2 environment, or I need a couple of you know netterman hoods that I can draw down over different experiments, but I want the room to remain as flexible and mobile as possible.
Speaker 1:So the furniture requirements in that room.
Speaker 2:I don't want to put too much furniture in the room, or I might want to put. I want to be able to draw stuff down from the ceiling because I don't know how I want to set up the room in six months or 12 months, I don't know which people from the organisation I want to put in the room to work together in six months or 12 months' time to sort of create and I love creating those spaces because it's quite challenging, particularly in a PC2 environment like to create flexibility of how you're going to set up a room and then have services available to flex is actually quite hard and you know, I know they're not really a competitor of yours, Planet Innovation. Down the way, it was one of their big asks when they were.
Speaker 1:That design that we had a look at was stunning. I believe it might have been Planet Innovation ones, with their consent, I believe that was a stunning space. You had like the little huddle rooms that's right, where you could kind of come in and have a chat about things that were within the lab, but they were still part of the lab. I can't remember if they were closed off like a booth.
Speaker 2:That one they the one I'm thinking of. There was because, um, in my opinion you might just. I think people who move into planet innovation are probably a step further along the commercialization road than what those who are at colabs I would say that is a safe guess.
Speaker 1:I feel like I like correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like a lot of things going to planet innovation might be uh, like an existing organization that has something or is trying to work on something with a larger budget let's say that's correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I tend to think that you know, they're a little bit further down that road and, okay, right, we're ready to move into, you know, turning our idea, our R&D into, to commercialise it, to turn it into something real. And they need space. Now, what Planet Innovation doesn't know, on day one, is what kind of space they need, how much space they need. So, obviously, you know, know, they've got a beautiful clean room in there as well that we designed. But there are other spaces that are quite flexible in the way that they can work and and they can, they can bring furniture in and take it out. For that reason, and, um, um, I think, um, I think, if australia continues to go down this sort of smart route which I'm so grateful that we are great for future generations things like GMP facilities and how they can flex to change, depending on what they're actually going to do in there, is going to be really, really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're seeing. I mean I'm so glad that you ended it there because I was going to attempt to wrangle it in that direction anyway, but we are seeing that um happen. So quite a lot of people reaching out to us are saying have you got gmp facilities? Have you got clean room facilities? Um, and, and that's kind of spurred us on to have a think about, well, what would a flexible clean room facility?
Speaker 1:I know we've had these discussions what would a flexible clean room facility look like? How could you set up some of these spaces, you know, potentially in partnership with the government or somewhere else, where you can um sort of flex in and people might come in for, you know, a small amount of time to prototype and experiment and iterate? So these sorts of, I guess, innovation clusters or hubs where you could have a clean room next to a production facility or production line or all of this sort of stuff, is incredibly interesting for us. But, as you sort of said before, you can't read the tea leaves with how this is going to be structured. So, baking that flexibility and I just I know how difficult it is, but I'm I'm curious, yeah, whether or not you're seeing, is there more projects that you're starting to take on, that are including that sort of stuff as well.
Speaker 2:I just think that people don't have a crystal ball with regard to how they think they're going to use space moving forward. So flexibility it was paramount when we designed your space.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's just taking it to the next level, right? So if you go into a 50-year-old lab and there's plenty of them around you're going to see a lot of built-in furniture and the logic was well then, nothing can fall behind there and you can seal it off or whatever. But the reality is now everything needs to be modular and you need to be able to clean to achieve the standards you want.
Speaker 2:And people want to think, well, okay, how much power will I need to that room, what kind of mechanical systems am I going to need in that room? And then they'll say but let's try and keep it as clear as possible.
Speaker 1:The last point. I'd circle back to there because I realised that I went on a tangent and didn't drill at home clean rooms. Is there anyone doing, I guess, what we're looking at doing with the accessible infrastructure, but with clean rooms, because we've had so many people come to us. So, planet Innovations 1, great, we'll definitely like, I'd not like. Do you know how much space there is there? It's not a huge space.
Speaker 2:It isn't a huge space, but I think most GMPs that I see is fit for purpose so like so, because they're so expensive to build. You'll see an entity go okay, I need 1,000 square metres. I'm going to go, oh, okay, that's real money. So it would be a hell of an investment to build a GMP facility where you didn't know what you were putting through. I could be wrong, but that would be my experience.
Speaker 1:I think that what you're saying sounds 100% true, but then I guess this brings up on top of that well, is that if that is something that we probably will need to see more of these innovative ideas come to market, then is that something that? So we have a lot of super funds come to us. Obviously, there's the National Reconstruction Fund we spoke about before, and there's a lot of investment in innovation infrastructure trying to improve software manufacturing capabilities. All of this sort of stuff is happening in Australia. Do you see a way in which someone like a CoLabs, or even the federal government or other players in this space, could end up building a top-of-the-line specced clean room that can be down-specced to meet the needs of, or that could be bookable for short amounts of time, or do you think this is a problem that might take a little bit more to solve?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't be surprised if CSIRO, for example, has got something like that. I know when we went to ANSTO they create spaces for PC. We were looking at some nuclear medicine stuff there and they create PC3 spaces for that. So it's certainly out there. But the investment is significant and I think if you're a super fund, I saw an excellent article from an engineering firm recently. It talked about the demand, where the demand is in the market for super funds and other property owners and it made it really clear that the key market is the pc2 lab market that makes sense as to why we're having so many different super funds.
Speaker 1:See this up. It's been pretty crazy the past six months I guess it was after the public announcement about the Monash site, we just had everyone rushing in and the amount of resources that they are all collectively spending and the amount of there's full teams now dedicated to life sciences to try and figure this sort of stuff out. It's been a very interesting, I guess, development and it feels like it really only happened again to your point, like post-COVID, a lot of this stuff is really picking up because it's like, well, we probably should have this onshore capability and capacity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we got caught with our pants down, didn't we? At COVID? I think that was a big thing like go well, actually we're. We're too dependent on the rest of the world and I don't think that'll let that. I don't think that'll happen again in my lifetime yeah, and I mean even on top of that.
Speaker 1:I guess the other interesting thing with um with it is that, um, because office space is now uh, as we've kind of talked about this earlier on, but live space, you get people coming in and they want to stay for like 5, 10, 15 years or if not longer, if they're, you know, going to be putting a, uh, if it's something up of like 50 to 100 million dollar investment, which some of these spaces can be, um, to your point, about the thousand square of clean room, yeah, you can imagine that people would want incredibly long leases. Um, I just, I do, I do wonder what the next level would be like. Obviously, with what we're doing, it's like where, hypothetically, co-labs and amicus what do you think would be an interesting thing to see begin to emerge in the next five to ten years from a spatial perspective? Would it be, you know, that sort of thing? I mean, what would be your ideal innovation space? This is real, christabel.
Speaker 2:But I guess, from where I sit, and because Amicus is not just Amicus, labline is the life science arm of Amicus, but Amicus does a lot of office fit-out as well. You know, a big part of the strategy for a lot of companies on the office side is well, I used to need x square meters per FTE per full-time equivalent. Now I need a third of that because I only got to come in two days or three days a week. So people are going. So you got your super funds and everyone else got all this property going. Well, everyone's renewing their leases, but they're asking for a third of the space. And what are we going to do? The other space that there's a huge demand for is warehousing, because, as we all know, everything gets delivered to our homes. Now nobody goes out to buy it. So the warehouses though we want them for labs. There's a there's a larger demand for them, so there's warehousing. The value of warehousing space is going up all the time as well.
Speaker 2:So I think a hybrid is an inevitability, more and more. Looking at my daughter's about to finish high school and she wants to study medical sciences. Now I'd never even heard of a degree called medical sciences back in the day, but it's one of the most in-demand courses in Australia now.
Speaker 1:So there's no question, there's a change going on you know, um, and I think you certainly you're not, you're not turning against that tide any anytime soon are there any other sort of key things that are going to emerge on the horizon that you think are worth people keeping an eye on when it comes to like lab space?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean just the whole biotech sector, um, the, just the whole explosion of the space. I think it's going to put a significant level of demand on it. I mean I, I look at um. I have a sense of pride knowing you guys for as long as I have I got onto your website today and seeing the broad range of um entities and creative thinkers that you guys are working with at the moment. So you'd be closer to that than I am. But I think I just believe the commercialisation of sciences in Australia is just going to continue to explode and we are really we're only at the start of that.
Speaker 1:It does really feel like that. It does really feel like entering. It does really feel like a entering, hopefully entering in potential golden age for innovation here in australia again after, because I mean, you think about how how much we packed a punch with csiro and everything back in the 70s and I think it might have been the 80s as well and then systematically underfunded, um, and then sort of it's maybe we're not translating as much research as we all sort of know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not even that interested in the CSIRO. Sorry, there'll be people listening to this from there. That's not what I'm talking about. I mean you talk to angel investors today right Right. Just private money. If you tried to get private money interested in science 10 years ago, they didn't understand it. They didn't want to get involved in it.
Speaker 1:It's definitely much more in the zeitgeist, like people, people are aware, you know whether, whether it's unfortunately something like a longevity yeah, but people, people know, you know that climate tech is going to be a massive thing going forward into the future. I mean like food tech, like all of this.
Speaker 2:You just need to like people smart. Smart money is going into it.
Speaker 1:So you're angel investors.
Speaker 2:You know there are. You know this already. There are fund managers raising money for these ideas right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's lots of new VCs coming online for climate tech, deep tech, biotech. Others that are already in the space are doubling down and raising new funds. It definitely feels like there's going to be a like a big wave of funding available, but I guess, kind of ironically, at the same time there still is a massive funding gap currently there is.
Speaker 2:I just don't think people have worked out how to spend the money yet, but the money's been raised, I think. Well, seems to be being raised, it's the due.
Speaker 1:I think that a lot of the issues is that and I don't want to speak on behalf of everyone, I don't know this for sure but I think that we are a bit more risk adverse here in Australia and a lot of the time there might not be the technical skill set to be able to validate whether or not someone's idea is bang on and like over in America you have plenty of well-off people who are like yeah sure, have like five million just just because, just to see what happens, whereas here it might be like, well, I could give you 500k, but I I want to like three phds worth of evidence to prove that this thing is, is going to, you know, be the next, that's generational right.
Speaker 1:So there's money going into it.
Speaker 2:There'll be more money that goes into it longer term and I and um I'm sure if I try to name the vc companies I'm going to get the names wrong, so I'm not going to do it, but we both know who I'm talking about there are quite a few that are raising money.
Speaker 2:There are super funds doing it as well, um, and I just think that there's going to be plenty of money and I think the government, certainly the government needed to lead the way and it has. But and I agree that it's still, it's not without its um hurdles still, but I just think that private, private money, uh, will become more the norm in this space than it has been for the last. I don't know how many years?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'd say it does feel like within the last five years, things have really ramped up, um, especially with, like your blackbirds and main sequences and possible ventures, but, uh, and then even new ones coming online as well, like boson, vc, um and a couple of others that we know as well. Um, yeah, I do really think that there's there's going to be an explosion in this space. I guess, from my point of view, it's always like well, how do really think that there's going to be an explosion in this space? I guess, from my point of view, it's always like well, how do we ensure that? Like, obviously, med tech, health tech, this is all massive. So it tends to be those larger things that are already established tend to be the ones that yell the loudest and end up getting the most infrastructure built for them.
Speaker 1:And I do wonder whether or not you know we're going to keep just doubling down on that sort of approach.
Speaker 1:Like or not you know we're going to keep just doubling down on that sort of approach like, oh look, it's a new innovation precinct and it's two new hospitals and it's all med tech, and we might be missing some of the opportunities when it comes to climate tech or deep tech solutions, that um are actually being created here and then going offshore because there isn't anywhere to sort of support them.
Speaker 1:Like we, we realistically serve as a tiny percent of the market about you know what space is needed and required and I am curious to know or I just hope that there is still that sort of systems approach that people are having to think about, which I assume those in these sort of investment portfolio places investing in property and super funds and all that they would kind of have to think like that, that portfolio approach. But yeah, I just hope that everyone at least has chats with each other and make sure that we're not doubling down and creating stuff that is not necessarily needed as as much as other things. But who knows, I guess that's up to up to us to try and facilitate and support on our journey definitely now.
Speaker 2:I imagine we're going to finish up in a sec before we bore everybody yeah, we can, we can finish.
Speaker 1:If you want to leave, that's fine. No, it's just how much I want to leave.
Speaker 2:I believe them wanting more maybe, but I did want to talk about a few things.
Speaker 2:I did want to put a plug in for something. If you don't mind, please, by all means. So, just anyone who's picking up on this podcast Amicus Labline. Obviously, we're a firm that focuses on the design and construction of life science facilities, um, but we've set up um a linkedin group called building better labs, and um really encourage everyone to subscribe to that group. We're going to run a whole host of webinars on there. We're going to bring on different experts in their field to talk about, I guess, the kind of things you need to look out for when you're looking to lease a space or or buy your first space for a laboratory. We're running a group of webinars over the next, probably next six months or so, that we're sort of referring to as let me say that again demystifying lab builds. We're going to start off talking to a certifier or a building surveyor and a town planner in the first one. Then we're going to talk to some engineers, particularly. We've spoken a lot today about mechanical engineering, but the other key area is dangerous goods in laboratories.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a whole other kettle of fish we didn't go to.
Speaker 2:And then the next one will be on architectural and design elements of a laboratory. We talked a lot about that today in terms of the kind of space people like to work in, but also there's obviously the Australian standards on that 2982 and the like. I'm going to get in a couple of architects and designers to talk to that Quantity surveyor, talk about the whole building process and then probably get a PC2 certifier or an ARDA certifier in just to talk about the things you need to consider when you're building your lab. So there are webinars that we hope to run monthly from June and please, you know, join the group. We really won't be. Yes, we'll be. I guess we're facilitating the forum, but we certainly don't want to be plugging ourselves through it. We actually want a transfer of ideas on that forum. So it's called building better labs. Um, I'm sure we can put something on there.
Speaker 1:we'll throw a link in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, I think.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's a really exciting concept to see you wanting to sort of do this, because it really speaks to.
Speaker 1:I guess why we were so excited to collaborate with you, not just just because your name is Latin for friend, but because you, as a team, you're always looking in like ways in which you can give and provide additional support and help that it feels much more relational than transactional, let's say, and I think this is such a great initiative because we have so many people come to us all the time wanting to build spaces and I think, being able to have a place where we can direct them, where there is a community of practice and a community of learning and people can share these ideas and knowledge, I think that is a really, really useful resource. So thank you for taking the initiative to set it up and, obviously, for inviting us to participate in it and um support its growth and development as well. I think it's a really useful resource. Once these webinars are filmed and recorded and are going to be shared in there as well, it's going to be not just a good resource for chatting to, but also a good resource for, like a knowledge base too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what we hope for. Yeah, because people just don't build labs all the time. People might do them once or twice in their lifetime of a firm, so we want to demystify that. When I get on the phone to somebody the first time and I give them an idea of what it's going to cost them to build their environment, I think they fall off their chair. And there's no.
Speaker 2:And what I'd say to anybody who's trying to get their head around it? Think about the cost of redecorating your bedroom versus redoing your en suite bathroom or your bathroom. So in your bedroom, you change the carpet, repaint the walls and put in new lights. In your bathroom, you're tearing out tiles. In your bathroom, you're tearing out tiles, firstly, disconnecting the electricals, the plumbing, the lighting, everything gutting it, and then you've got to get all those trades back in, and I think it's the best way to think about it. The amount of trades and services you need in a lab versus in an office space is very similar to if you think about your bedroom versus your bathroom I just know how much of a deep visceral experience that is for you personally.
Speaker 1:I know exactly where that metaphor came from. Um, is there anything else you'd like to touch on before we wrap it up? Good to go it's been a.
Speaker 2:It's my first ever podcast, as you know no, no, this has been good.
Speaker 1:I mean, as I said, you can you can definitely talk the ears off anything, so it's good to see that that consistency is still there. As soon as we put a microphone, some people freak out. They're like, how do I relate to this thing? And I think it's yeah, if you're a good conversationalist, I think anyone can kind of talk on these podcasts. So you've done well and we'll definitely be back for another round See if there's any other questions or thoughts we can have a chat about, or even if it's something just to do with the Monash site or even if it's just plugging some of these events series. So, yeah, let us know whenever you feel like coming back on and safe trip back to Sydney tomorrow. Thanks very much, mate. Awesome, no worries.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to today's episode with aaron budai from amicus. We hope you enjoyed the conversation and some of those tips proved to be helpful or useful for you now or in the future. As always, uh, yeah, be sure to check them out if you're interested and drop us a line if there's anyone that you'd like to hear us talk to any conversations or events you might like to see run for the deep tech, biotech, climate tech, community in melbourne anything at all? We're all ears, uh, we love to try and make sure that what we're doing and creating is of use to those in the ecosystem. So, yeah, I'm gonna stop talking now. See you later.