The Strange Attractor
The Strange Attractor
Redefining Cancer Diagnostics: The Promise of Precision Oncology with Martin from Oncoparse | #13
Join us as we welcome Martin Thompson, the visionary CEO and founder of Oncoparse, who has transformed personal adversity into groundbreaking innovation in the fight against pancreatic cancer. From his journey as an electrical engineer to co-founding Lenexa Medical, Martin's story is a testament to the power of design-led thinking and interdisciplinary collaboration. Discover how the University of Melbourne's biodesign course is fostering a new wave of startups by pairing engineering and business students, all focused on addressing critical clinical needs.
Explore cutting-edge pancreatic cancer treatment through the lens of precision oncology, where we discuss the revolutionary promise of KRAS-targeted therapies and ctDNA-based approaches. Our conversation delves into how a collaborative ecosystem, bolstered by AI and data analysis, is driving forward the identification of oncogenic genes and shaping the future of cancer diagnostics. With the potential for exponential growth as more data becomes available, we're on the brink of transformative advancements that could redefine patient outcomes.
Navigating the challenging landscape of early-stage MedTech and BioTech funding in Australia, we discuss our vision for creating a supportive platform to empower innovation. In this chat, you'll learn about the hurdles and opportunities faced by one of our startups and also hear how initiatives like venture studios and alternative venture support pathways could serve to support more groundbreaking ideas. Through personal stories and Martin's unique perspective, this conversation allows us to understand his relentless drive to tackle significant health issues, motivated by a deep-seated desire to make a tangible difference in the world of cancer innovation.
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Hello and welcome to the Strange Attractor, an experimental podcast from CoLabs, a transdisciplinary innovation hub and biotechnology co-working lab based in Melbourne, Australia. I'm your co-host, Sam Wines, and alongside my co-founder, Andrew Gray, we'll delve deep into the intersection of biology, technology and society through the lens of complexity and systems thinking. Join us on a journey of discovery as we explore how transdisciplinary innovation, informed by life's regenerative patterns and processes, could help us catalyze a transition towards a thriving future for people and the planet.
Samuel Wines:Hello and welcome to another episode of The Strange Attractor.
Samuel Wines:It's been a hot minute since we recorded a podcast. It's been very busy on our end getting the new Notting Hill facility up and running and a couple of other things going on in the background which are pretty exciting that we'll speak about, like the Venture Studio, potentially a fund as well. I think I actually talk about it in this podcast. Anyway, this is a good one. This is a chat with one of our recent members, Martin Thompson. So Martin is the CEO and founder of Oncoparse. So Oncoparse is looking at finding new and novel ways to detect pancreatic cancer early on, so you don't have to die from it, which we think is pretty cool.
Samuel Wines:We hope you enjoy this conversation with Martin and stay tuned. We've got a couple of other podcasts in the works that we're going to get finished and out onto the airwaves soon. Welcome, thanks. I was just saying before. This has been a long time coming, but I think things are just starting to ramp up now for you here at CoLab, so it's probably actually a good time to jump on the podcast and talk about what you're getting up to. Hey, yeah, absolutely, yeah, awesome.
Martin Thompson:So for those that don't know what is your background, so I actually graduated as an electrical engineer with a final year in biodesign innovation. So I studied a Master of Electrical Engineering and my final year was biodesign innovation at the University of Melbourne. Some listeners people may be familiar with the program spins out a lot of edtech startups into the ecosystem. So I spun out a company called Lenexa Medical. I was the CTO and director at Lenexa Medical. I grew that company until 2020, the very end of 2021, at which point I moved into a publicly listed company, adherium, working on regulatory submissions and devices for them. Then mid last year so that's mid 2023, jumped into Oncopars full-time as the founder and CEO and, yeah, since then been growing, got two more co-founders and moved into CoLabs and, you know, look very happy.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, I find the biodesign thing is really interesting because when I hear or when I think biodesign I think designing with biology, not designing for biology in a medtech application. It's really interesting how the same word in a different context can mean something totally, totally different. You know, I've got books on biodesign that are like how we can use mycelium to grow wall panels or hemp to do insulation or, you know, replacing petrochemical plastics with kelp, like all of this sort of stuff. Like that is when I hear biodesign. But when I came across, yeah, the Melbourne Uni biodesign course, it's very much more medtech focused. Could you kind of elaborate more around what that course is like? Because it feels like it very much is a bit of a generator function for the MedTech actuator and tram and a couple of other things. It does really feel like it has a bit more of a, I guess, commercial or industry application outcome from that course. Is that an accurate sort of Very much so, very much so.
Martin Thompson:That's the intention. So by Design started in Stanford, and now I'm curious as to where they got the name from, what they were thinking when they said by Design. I hear what you're saying, but yeah, so the program pairs up engineers with business students in their final years. So so it pairs them up, and then the approach is a needs-based approach. You look in your points of interest and around the health system, at hospitals, et cetera, for clinical needs. You identify clinical needs, you develop concepts based on those needs and the ultimate goal is to spin out a business that has good prospects, a good defensible IP, hence the engineers, solid business model, business students and to spin out. So the objective is to develop commercially viable businesses.
Samuel Wines:Yes, Okay, but also you're saying needs oriented. So a word that I use a lot with innovation is it needs to be challenge led, and it sounds like needs oriented is kind of that same sort of approach. But just saying like, don't go and make something that's not needed, you know, look and find something that there is no solution for, or a major challenge that we might be facing, be facing, and then try and find or design a solution around that. Right Absolutely, and in a way, that's where Oncoparse was born, right.
Martin Thompson:Yes, yeah, that was an ease-based approach. So I was actually looking at a variety of things and my grandfather had died from pancreatic cancer in 2017, actually the year I was doing biodesign innovation so I returned to the problem and looked into it and discovered that, you know, it was a completely void of good solutions in any way for this cancer and I was very surprised to see that, you know, not a lot of innovation had taken place on such an aggressive cancer, which is the third biggest killer of all cancers in Australia. So there was that exceptionally strong need there to do something about this.
Samuel Wines:Okay, so I remember you saying I think Andrew as well has had a family member pass away from pancreatic cancer and so the reason why it's so aggressive is that currently, when trying to detect it, it's usually in the latter stages of the cancer development, where it's pretty much a death sentence. Is that pretty accurate?
Martin Thompson:I would say that is the major reason as to the very high mortality rate that it is detected so late, usually only once symptoms have shown themselves. But it is also a very aggressive and complicated tumour. It can begin in patients as early as 40 as a non-threatening sort of microtubular complexes that start to grow and that's the very onset of this disease and that may never turn into cancer. But that is generally thought to be where it comes from, so it can be present very early on. It's in a very hormonally dense environment and just the way the tumor forms as well. It doesn't shed a lot either. So it's very densely sort of protected in, like a sort of scar tissue complex. So it's hard to detect and there are no ways of detecting it early. So usually, yes, you only see it once the symptoms are showing and by then you know you're in trouble.
Samuel Wines:So you're going to have to school me here. I learned about the pancreas and all these things back in my undergrad as well, but I'm totally at a loss to what the main hormones are that it sort of regulates and how that could sort of play into the, I guess, the cancer formation and all of that sort of stuff. Is it linked to, I guess, the fact that it is a major hormone center? Is any of that impacting the cancer growth or anything at all? Or is it because I know that there's so many idiosyncrasies with all the different types of cancer? Right?
Martin Thompson:Yeah, look, that is one of the reasons given as to potentially why it is such an aggressive location for the development of this cancer. I've read it being called as the angry organ because of the hormonally dense environment. I'm mostly familiar with the genetic mutations and probably this very dense hormonal environment is the driver for a lot of these genetic mutations. So there are a great number of these which lead to variously turning off tumor suppressor genes, et cetera, which is common as well in other cancers. But for pancreatic cancer it does seem that there are a few more of these genes present and that's why it is. It is a good idea to have an approach that can look sort of holistically or at a large, a large sample of these variants rather than just one or two, and I imagine that's where the future of pancreatic cancer treatment, um, it, will be heading. You know a sort of a variety of treatments to deal with all of these different genetic mutations that can cause different expression of different, you know, oncogenic and metastatic situations to take place.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, it's fascinating. It does really feel like so much of the advancements in med tech, health tech, all of this sort of stuff. We're realizing that we're coming up against the limits of reductionism and there's only classic, one gene, one problem. All this sort of stuff that we used to say no longer is fit for purpose to be able to solve some of these solutions, especially in such a complex area with so many flow-on effects from all of these gene cascades and all of that sort of stuff. And it really makes sense to me that we should be taking these holistic approaches to be able to try and look at the thing as a whole and map the dynamic into relationships and try and make sense of what's going on. And doing that early, right To your point.
Samuel Wines:It sounds like there are some key patterns and processes which you can pick up on and then maybe keep an eye on, like like. Is there any interventions currently that like say, I don't know, using your technology they can identify that? Is there some sort of treatments or things that currently are available to maybe address things when it's at, like, that microtubule stage or other sort of things? Is there anything out there yet, or are you hoping that the technology that you're creating will then lead to more experiments with treatment. That's earlier on.
Martin Thompson:That has been. One of the major problems is that there weren't any effective treatments. The only effective way of addressing the cancer is resection and chemotherapy. Targeted therapy that I'm aware of locally there is a KRAS targeted medication that is currently in clinical trials and that will be the first, and KRAS is the major oncogenic mutation for pancreatic cancer, so that will be the first targeted medication that will be available should that trial be successful. So there has not been treatment available. However, it is the time now at which there is a resurgence of interest in treatment for pancreatic cancer, probably because of the technology. The government has put in a significant amount of money into developing treatments for pancreatic cancer, so now is a good time. There's a lot of money available for treatment not necessarily, unfortunately, for us as a diagnostic, but there's a great opportunity to be a partner diagnostic for these therapies that are being developed, even in the early stages, and referring people to these clinical studies that are becoming available.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, to me that makes sense. You kind of have to take an ecosystem approach with stuff like this. Right, there's going to be someone working on the diagnostics, someone working on the treatment, and finding ways to like effectively interrelate with them makes a lot of sense, and I can imagine that your technology as it develops might be something that these people creating the treatments for like, if they have that, then it will allow the treatment to be more efficacious, or something like that, because they're getting there earlier, making it happen. So it's really exciting. Have you explored collaborations or partnerships with anyone currently?
Martin Thompson:We have had discussions. We haven't dove into anything significant at this point in time, but you know, as we develop and as we go through our trials, that is something that is first and foremost on our radar.
Samuel Wines:No, that makes sense. That makes sense. So would you define this as, like, precision oncology or how would you sort of like, what sort of realms does this fit into, like this form of technology that you're creating, and what kind of advanced data analysis is it kind of working with to make this happen?
Martin Thompson:It's absolutely precision oncology. So using ctDNA. So we take a ctDNA-based approach. What's ctDNA? So ctDNA-based approach? What's ctDNA? So ctDNA is circulating tumor DNA. So it comes from cell-free DNA. So cell-free DNA refers to all of the circulating DNA in your body that has been released when a cell dies, for instance. So when they die, they let out their contents and there's all this DNA floating around your body.
Martin Thompson:Cancer cells do the same thing. So we take a liquid biopsy, so about four milliliters of blood. We sequence all of the DNA we find in that blood. So if you have a tumor, there will be tumor DNA present in that sample. So we sequence everything there and search for oncogenic genes and also analyze the methylome. So, in terms of data analysis and also analyze the methylome. So, in terms of data analysis, that is, taking that approach of looking at the variants of interest, also looking at the methylome and also sequencing the whole genome, so everything that is present and as we get more and more samples, it's sort of like an omics approach as well, looking at different sets of data and also correlating that with, perhaps, things that we may not be aware have an impact on the development of the cancer, using AI to draw those conclusions as well. Yeah, so yeah, data plays a big role in our approach.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, it sounds so, then. Almost as well it's like personalized oncology, but, to your point as well, it's going to be fascinating to see, you know, there might be some genes, totally irrelevant, in another space, that just so happen to also be, I guess, causing or supporting the cancer to grow and develop. So it's that's interesting. So what? What have you been building AI in-house? Have you been looking at using stuff that already exists, like what's the? What's the approach that you're thinking of taking?
Martin Thompson:Both. So at this point in time, we we use a lot of the tools that are available from our supplier and we augment those. But as we get bigger and bigger data sets, we'll be able to grow more effective AI models. So at this point in time, in the early stage, it's a case of augmentation of those models. And as we get more and more data, as we are, then we'll be able to fine tune and grow those models. And as we get more and more data, as we are, then, you know, we'll be able to fine tune and grow those models. At the end of the day, it's sort of an exponential growth situation, right? You know, the more data we collect and the more we accelerate, the better our models are going to be, you know, and the more data we can collect as well, you know, and the more data we can collect as well.
Samuel Wines:So with this is this are you starting with pancreatic cancer? Do you think that this technology could be potentially utilized for other cancers or other forms of diagnosis in the health med tech sort of spaces? Is this just? Let's start here? This is a major killer, but have you got your eyes set in the future on exploring ways in which this could also be leveraged for other cancers? Absolutely.
Martin Thompson:We envision this as being a platform technology and our approach definitely lends itself to that. So pancreatic cancer as a starting point, as a massive unaddressed need and a personal problem for me as well, and you know, expansion to other rare cancers, expansion to brain tumors and then eventually expansion to support, you know, the whole ecosystem and that is just very much the case for our technology and our approach. That we sequence the whole genome in the sample just means that we have access to all of the variants for any tumor that would be present in your body.
Samuel Wines:No, that checks out. To me, that was. I've always wanted to ask you that because it seems like the approach that you're taking could easily be transposed into another context, especially if you've got like an AI powered thing. They might even be able to do inferences with other cancers, or I can imagine there could be a scene not that this is necessarily great, but where you could be taking samples, running them through, and then the AI is like oh, they don't have pancreatic cancer, but there's this other thing that you probably should keep an eye on or check. I can see how this could interrelate with like a thing like DNA fit or like some of the basic tools that 23andMe and all these other health genetic tests and panels have got. So I can imagine that, to your point being a platform tech, it could be really easy to sort of plug this into an ecosystem and support a whole bunch of other people doing things. And no, it's good to hear that you're speaking that sort of way.
Samuel Wines:I feel like most good technologies going forwards will be taking that sort of collaborative approach and finding ways to support one another. It's kind of that's how an actual ecosystem works. Right, you've got like a birch tree. I don't know why I'm using American examples. You've got a eucalypt tree that's probably going to be sharing resources with a wattle, and you know. So these are sort of things that happen in it through the mycorrhizal network and it's like you know, this sort of technology that you're looking at creating is kind of like that mycorrhizal network that can connect different tools and tech together and be able to support people going forward. So that's really exciting. I mean, what are like because it's such a sensitive and complex sort of area cancer treatment. So I'm curious, like what are some of the biggest sort of technical challenges you've had to face with bringing this to life sort of technical challenges you've had to face with bringing this to life?
Martin Thompson:Yeah, good question. So because we are using a sort of we're definitely deep tech, we're using the latest technology in sequencing I might as well tell you about it. So we use nanopore technology to sequence. Ngs is pretty much where you'd characterize the current level of high-tech solutions and development of taking place. So NGS is where it's at. For the most part, we use nanopore because of several benefits that I mentioned earlier we can get different sets of data in a single sample, et cetera.
Martin Thompson:So challenges in this context means working with a new technology means that there are still issues, that there are sources of inaccuracies that are still being worked out. So that's a challenge for us is we've been increasing our accuracy and our sensitivity step by step, iteration on iteration, to get the best cell-free DNA assay possible. Now not only when you look at the tech situation. You look at the situation of pancreatic cancer. It doesn't shed very much and that means that, compared to other cancers, you're going to have a low tumor CT DNA tumor burden in your system. So it means there's just not a lot of the DNA there. So you've got to be correcting and thinking about every source of error possible to make sure that you can actually pick up that signal. So that's our approach and those are the challenges.
Samuel Wines:Is it possible to get a false positive with something like this, or is it more likely? Is it possible to get a false positive with something like this, or is it more likely that you're going to get a false negative on reads?
Martin Thompson:More likely that you're going to get a false negative.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, that checks out, and so you're saying earlier on, you're saying that the reason why there's not much of this DNA floating around is that it tends to form like a scar and is very kind of secluded. So, given that fact, like I'm trying to think, is there like even ways in which you could take samples because it's a blood sample, right, so you can take that from anywhere and it's systemic, right? Are there any other modes or ways to do non-invasive sampling, or is this pretty much the best way?
Martin Thompson:Non-invasive? No, the current standard for sequencing and characterizing a pancreatic cancer lesion is through fine needle aspiration biopsy. So you're going through an endoscope into the stomach and a needle is inserted through the stomach lining into the pancreas and they take a solid biopsy that way. So it's invasive. It's only done generally, only done once. So no, there aren't really any other ways. There's only other biomarker that is available is CA19-9, but that is not specific to pancreatic cancer. That's elevated for a lot of different cancers.
Samuel Wines:Okay, cool. Yeah, I was wondering. I guess where I was kind of leading with that is. I know that there are some ways in which you can detect things through breath or other means as well. Like I know there are some cancers, that which you can detect things through breath or other means as well. Like I know there are some cancers that dogs can pick up on right. So I was curious as to whether or not there was any ability to pick up or sense things that are like a smell or a pheromone or a breath or something like that, because I imagine there would be modulations. But, to your point, maybe there's, you know, certain modulations in that that are just going to happen, even if you're sick, and it's what kind of sickness isn't necessarily going to be easy to ascertain from taking those sorts of samples.
Samuel Wines:So what does it look like for you having to bring this from ideation to actualization? What are the steps or the pathways? Like as a med tech company or as a deep tech company, that because there's so many different things that you've got to do right. Like because it's truly transdisciplinary. You've got engineering, you've got life science, you're going to have a full tech team and then there's going to be AI, like when we speak about supporting transdisciplinary innovation like this, is it right? And I imagine there's so many steps and hurdles that you have to jump through to be able to make a valid product, but then through that, you're also having to do the clinical trials, I imagine. So what does it look like for you to bring this to market, and how long is that expected to take?
Martin Thompson:Yeah, so it is a complicated and very interdisciplinary process. I'm very fortunate that with my background, I understand some of the pathways, such as the regulatory submissions and the appropriate points of collaboration. So you definitely need a clinical champion. We're very fortunate to have that with our co-founder, dr Julian Choi, an expert in pancreatic cancer Definitely need your scientific, of course, lead, which we're fortunate to have with our other co-founder, omar Dabash. So we've been building up a plan for our clinical studies which, of course, supports our regulatory submission. So we have an upcoming biobank project and post the biobank project it's going to be about a year's worth of longitudinal clinical studies. So we're on a path to looking at going to market in 2027. So you know, the regulatory environment for medtech devices, let alone a diagnostic, is pretty significant. So we have to collect a lot of data and a lot of evidence for that. So the major challenge for us is definitely the clinical studies, which we're very fortunate to have a partner with to be working on that.
Samuel Wines:Well and it's so expensive. This is one of the things that I only figured out recently when we had, like another member, talking about going through this process. Like you know the different phases of the clinical trials as well, like there's actually quite a jump between, you know, say, phase one, phase two, like clinical trials, in terms of how much you have to fork out to make this happen. Right, Um, which you know. Obviously other companies that aren't in the health tech, med tech space don't have to account for Um. So obviously, when looking at raising, this is all stuff that you have to be factoring in and obviously, as you said, partnering with other people who can help you make it happen probably is super useful. Are you thinking of doing that locally?
Martin Thompson:Yes, yeah, the Australian market, the Australian ecosystem. It's a good place to start. So we've been. You know we're raising locally, we're talking to partners locally, we work at local hospitals. The plan is to launch the product locally in Australia, melbourne first, and grow here, you know, within the first couple of years, and then launch overseas.
Samuel Wines:That makes sense. So do you have to go through a different regulatory hurdle when you're going to, say, the States or to the EU? Do you have to like, rinse and repeat what you've done here, or does this, I don't know, like it's like. Is it like uni grades, where it's like, oh well, if you went to that uni, that course doesn't count. When you come here, like, is it something similar to that? You have to go through the same pathways in different countries to meet their different needs.
Martin Thompson:Yeah, so they do have their own regulatory bodies and regulatory requirements for submission. Of course there's the FDA for America and MDR in the EU, so you don't necessarily have to repeat the whole process. You can take evidence, the evidence you've collected for your submission locally, for the submission in those markets.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, have you? I mean, it's going to be a wild next, like three to four years in America at the moment. Um, is there going to be any cause? I know that, like you know, the number one thing Trump talks about is tariffs and taxing everything coming in. Like obviously, every single med tech device and stuff like that that are coming from Australia or anywhere else are going to be hit with these tariffs, which is going to be interesting.
Samuel Wines:I'm curious to see how that will change the landscape and whether people are more inclined to want to stay here to set things up and keep their eyes on APAC rather than the US, or whether it's not going to be any issue at all. Yeah, I'm really curious to see how this new presidency will impact, I guess, deep tech, climate tech, impact-oriented innovation, given that they're very keen on advanced tech and everything. But it feels like it might be going a little bit more nationalist, so I'm curious to see how that will sort of pan out. Has that been something that you've been sitting with or thinking about, or not too phased about that, just focusing here on Australia?
Martin Thompson:So look, we've always had a strategy to launch into the American market. We have been focusing mostly on North America through Canada, though, because we have connections in Canada. One of our advisors is Canadian and she heads up. You know she has some significant relationships there with hospitals and a specific interest in pancreatic cancer, so we've been looking at Canada as a launchpad. That's where we've been developing our relationships. But the US market is such a big market We've been in conversations with distributors there so I imagine it's generally from a sales perspective for us selling into that market, business as usual. So yeah, that's been our path so far and yeah, Cool.
Samuel Wines:So looking at the as I just mentioned before, like Aussie ecosystem, you know that's where you're looking at starting and staying. Obviously this space is evolving rapidly. Is there anything like in this ecosystem that whether it's infrastructure or whether it's partners and things like that that you think would help accelerate growth that don't currently exist? Like? Is there anything in the ecosystem where you're like oh, it would be great if we had this.
Martin Thompson:Yeah, I feel like there's not a lot of necessarily a lot of grants available for companies like us that are biotech sort of diagnostic companies. I feel like there's a lot of funding available for the development of therapies. There's a lot of. There's more funding around for medtech companies. So I just feel like there could be more accessible grants for early stage development of diagnostics or even looking at therapies. I feel like most of it is targeted towards later stage companies and then the grants that are available for early stage companies aren't really, you know, for us.
Samuel Wines:Understood. Yeah, they're not necessarily contextually appropriate. Um, a lot of the time, but this is and again, like I'm I'm I'm smiling because this is a this is a comment we hear all the time right, it's like these grants are great for people who aren't like us. Uh, and then so many of these um companies and startups trying to do do things differently and or trying to create things that currently don't exist, then there's not necessarily piles of grant funding out there for that. You know, we're really good at health tech, med tech, in very certain specific fields, and it's like we've just doubled down on that and put all the money into that rather than maybe opening or widening the boundaries. And also, I think, you know, it does seem like we have quite a low risk tolerance here in Australia, at least from a government investment perspective, whereby, to your point, people are really happy to wait for you to get three or four steps before the finish line of the marathon and then grab your hand and run over and be like, hey, look at this, look how good we are, rather than helping you at the starting line, let alone helping you do the training to prepare for the marathon.
Samuel Wines:It does really feel like we tend to prioritize things that are almost already done, which is a bit of a pity. I feel like that's why we have lost so many technologies overseas, why so many ideas don't even, I guess, get off the ground at all. So it's a pain to hear that, but I do think that there will be a lot, of, a lot of change over the next five to ten years, with a bit more support coming that way. I think we have to if we're wanting to really amp up this ecosystem. So fingers crossed that some more grants and stuff like that come around for you. Yeah, it's a challenge and, as I said, we hear it all the time. Yeah, it's a challenge. As I said, we hear it all the time.
Martin Thompson:We're battlers, here we're battlers. So in the US it's a lot easier to raise money earlier on, but here sort of, we have to, you know, really battle for it in the early stage and take care of a lot of that risk and raising money from angels um early on, um, to get to that point. It'd be nice to have a bit more of a supportive ecosystem. Like you know, colabs is such a good supportive ecosystem, um, but more of like perhaps support for a biotech, specific accelerators and incubators, um, there's not a lot of options, I I guess. Maybe a question for you is one day will we have a collabs uh incubator accelerator program?
Samuel Wines:uh, I mean, yeah, so I'm so glad you asked. Uh, yeah, we actually we are actually looking at um this right now. So there's a couple of uh grant options that we've gone in on to look at creating things like that, and we do have a couple of potential partners that we've gone in on to look at creating things like that. And we do have a couple of potential partners that we are finalizing discussions with to essentially create a fund alongside CoLabs to be able to support members and to be able to try and get these early stage innovations and ideas off the ground. So there's multiple approaches that we're looking at taking here.
Samuel Wines:We're not sure what we're calling it, whether it's a venture studio, whether it's a accelerator, an incubator, it's it's kind of all of those and none of those at the same time, because you know you've already got a company, you, you're already started, so it's definitely not a studio for you. It would be more of like an incubation or acceleration. But then say there's something that we want to really address. Say, like one of our members is looking at growing kelp and we're like, great, well, we'd love to be able to use that kelp to create plastic alternative products. So then maybe we spin up a company to then buy that feedstock from that company who's already a member. So like this industrial ecology approach.
Samuel Wines:So I really don't know what we're going to call this thing a venture platform, a venture builder? I'm not too sure. I don't want to get too stuck up on words because sometimes if you use something so abstract, people are like so it's like an accelerator and you'd be like, no, it's not those, it's something different. But everyone always has a perspective or a view on this right, which is always interesting. But yes, there will be something coming soon and yes, we have, like I guess, our eyes on quite a few of our members that we'd love to be able to support along the way, because, yeah, just seeing so many of you in all the time battling just trying to make things happen, I mean that's why we exist to make it as effective, like financially, to be able to get into the space and start doing things.
Samuel Wines:But totally acknowledge that this is the space is one element, but there still needs to be the resource and to be able to support people to do the thing, and so much of founders time and not actually spent doing the tech or doing the thing, it's spent actually like almost in just constant crisis mode of like I just need to keep this thing afloat. I just need to keep this thing afloat, should just just like, go over here but one more found. I've just got a little bit of money over here and you know these things like that's great, but if that pressure was taken off, you could go further, so much faster, which a lot of these things need to be able to bring them to market and, I guess, make the positive impact that we want to see in the world. So, yeah, no, I get you, it's a challenge. So, fingers crossed, we can have something up and running in the next sort of six to 12 months 100%.
Martin Thompson:I really appreciate that. You understand the needs and you know what we're all going through and the fact that you have that experience, you know that sounds excellent.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, well, it's all everything that we've done has been to your point before about the biodesign with the challenge led, everything that we've done has been to your point before about the, the biodesign with the challenge led, everything that we've done. Like, we started this by finding out that people wanted space. Um, because there was a community science lab that people are asking to rent during the day because they're like there's nowhere we can get space, and so so this was born from that um, and then, as we, as we're doing this, then now people like great, you got the space, but we don't have the money. People come to you and being like we'll give you a stake in the company just to have access to the lab space, which originally we were trying to be as hands-off IP as possible, just trying to be like Switzerland, like come in do whatever, we're not going to try and take anything but realizing that people do need resourcing and support to be able to get these ideas off the ground.
Samuel Wines:Some of them are great ideas but to your point, maybe and then this is not necessarily to try and rip on the ecosystem, but maybe there might not be enough technical expertise to be able to understand that this is a good thing this device, whereas this one over here might be really easy to sell and talk about, but it's actually probably not what we need in the world. But that'll get 10x the funding because it can be clearly communicated to someone who has capital and they can see short-term returns on it rather than the long-term positive impact of these other things. So it's a fascinating thing to perceive, like over the past four or five years, and I think we're pretty well, I guess, armed with the insight of being on the ground trying to help people build things, and we've kind of seen so many different patterns and processes going on that we feel like we're pretty well positioned to be able to understand how to effectively support that with partnerships from capital providers and stuff like that. So we are very excited to be able to bring that to life and thanks for drawing that out of me.
Samuel Wines:I wasn't expecting to uh to talk about that at all on this uh, on this podcast. So I feel like I'm co-opting your podcast. We're meant to be talking about what you're getting up to. It was on my mind, looking back, like knowing what you know now, having gone through this journey for what's been almost 12 months almost yeah, yeah, what, what?
Samuel Wines:what if you'd known what you know now before embarking on this journey? Like what, what do you wish you could have done differently or factored in?
Martin Thompson:or is there anything like that where you're like oh, people are much more accepting of your um, your, your challenges, and of your business and of your ideas than you think. So very early on when I started this, from my previous experience, I knew that it can be done right. Where there is a problem, where there is a significant need, you can address that need. You can save lives and create successful business model as well. Um, I think, and with something as big as cancer, it is so like or I don't know can I go and address that?
Martin Thompson:I feel like it's a bit silly to go and do that. Like people are going to be like what on earth are you doing? Why would you try and do that? And I will tell you that a couple of people did say that to me early on just random people like what do you think you're doing? Um, why are you doing that? You think you can, uh, do do something for cancer, or some sort of sly comments like that. And it's just like we just kept on persisting and we found that there are actually so many super experienced and super supportive people. So just keep pushing forward with your idea. Don't listen to the haters. If there's a problem that needs solving, then there are many people out there who support you, and there is definitely a way and just keep persisting and growing.
Samuel Wines:Yeah, I feel like, again, it's always a bit of a giggle moment. But the exact same thing, right, like what you know? That classic like what right do you have to be doing what you're doing? And it's like, well, none you know. But what right does anyone have to do what they're doing? Right?
Samuel Wines:Just because someone's done like a 10 year tenureship focusing on this exact specific area, it doesn't mean that they necessarily have any more credibility or can perceive a situation any better. Sometimes it can actually be worse through the process of like kind of that reductionist education where you're so focused on one tiny thing. It's like that might be great and it might be really good for research, but sometimes it can't be. It's maybe not as appropriate for if you're trying to do an innovation, where it needs to be way more dynamic and design-ally approach to science, where you're constantly designing, testing, iterating and the variables might not be staying constant at all, and the golden rule of science is keep all the variables constant and then maybe change one thing to be able to see how it is getting affected. So, yeah, I really resonate with that whole doing things differently or doing things without having the pedigree and just being like whatever, like if there's a challenge that's big enough, that you see needs to happen in the world.
Samuel Wines:Going and facing that, I think, is massive, and so many of our startups that have been the most successful the founders don't have any background in science, none at all. They're just like. This is a problem that I see, and I will find the right people and we'll make this happen, because this is something that I care about. This is how I'm going to show up in the world and this is what I'm going to do to make a positive impact, and that is such a more powerful way to go about it.
Samuel Wines:I think personally and I find that sometimes as well like not being confined by a single discipline or way of looking at the world can be really beneficial for bringing these things to life, because people are going to be coming at it from a very different approach and when you bring all these different people together, that's when, you know, really insightful things can emerge. Riffing on all of this, given the fact that it is such a battle, what motivates you? You know that is such a battle. What motivates you, you know, and there's so many challenges and regulatory hurdles what is it that motivates you with your work and what keeps you going.
Martin Thompson:It's something I'm passionate about, it's something that I like doing, that I feel good about that. I feel like I'm making a difference in people's lives. There's so many. Life is hard right, let alone that you want to be struck down by this terrible illness where you just don't have a chance of addressing it and the fact that it affects so many people. The third biggest killer of all cancers is going to rise to the second biggest killer of all cancers. This needs to be addressed. It's a problem that we all face collectively, together, as humanity. It's one of those. You know it's a big problem and you know we people don't deserve to suffer through that, as I've seen through my own family experience. So you know that motivates me, that that we can make that change, that we can make that change, that we can build the world better no, I love that.
Samuel Wines:I love that. Um, is there anything like aside from this, is there anything in the the bio-led design and innovation space that really inspires you or that you find really awesome, like whether it's you know another member here doing something or just some stuff overseas? Is there anything where you're like, damn, that's cool?
Martin Thompson:I think. I think they're all pretty cool and motivational. You know, even you mentioned the people growing kelp before. It's just exceptionally good and interesting ideas that I never would have thought of before, that that someone had a personal connection to, and turn that into a business. Because, as you mentioned before, like research on its own doesn't mean that people have access to the product and the service. It needs to be translated into a business. That's the sort of society we live in.
Martin Thompson:So to see these people taking extremely unique ideas and turning them into products and services that people can access, I guess you know, like Cortical Labs is very inspiring. The journey that they've gone through and it's just such a unique product as well. Right, it's just so crazy and unique and addressing such an interesting need and to see how they've grown and also Magic Valley. That's actually something that I think is really, really a big need, because I like to eat meat, but I would much prefer to eat meat that was not taken from a living animal. I would very much prefer to eat meat that was grown in a lab through meat cells. So I think that that is exceptional. If we can have that meat in the market, that would be amazing. I think that's so cool.
Samuel Wines:He actually just. Paul just did a podcast with Chris Williamson which I just blew my mind when he said that. I was like what? So I don't know who's doing his PR. They're doing a good job. But yeah, there is some really exciting things happening here and it's pretty wild that we get to just sort of all hang out and like have a conversation, like last week with Hon. It's been nice having you come around, because I know how you're, not, you don't live close, you know you're what is it Like? A car, tram, a train, a ferry?
Martin Thompson:uh, yeah, I live around the bay, but I'm very fortunate that the ferry does go. It takes like an hour and 10 minutes, so it's about the same as like living in, like the second ring and getting a train. So I was very fortunate that the ferry exists, otherwise I'd probably be very difficult to access yeah, yeah, no, well it's.
Samuel Wines:I really appreciate like your commitment to trying to come to all of these sorts of things and it does really feel like. I feel like I see you light up when you get to be around other people doing interesting things. So, um, no, it's been a pleasure having you as a part of the family. Um, is there anything like any sort of last parting words or anything from our perspective that you want to share, like any updates from your team or just anything at all?
Martin Thompson:Well, look, we're approaching the Christmas period now so we're sort of, you know, we are trying to tie up our ends before the end of the year. Tying up our ends includes, you know, some fundraising that we've been doing, some new team members that we're bringing on, so that's exciting, you know, to bring more people into our immediate family. But just appreciate so much the work you guys do here at CoLabs in supporting us, just the dedication to helping us all and growing the ecosystem and supporting us and also the culture that you bring. The culture is important because it makes you feel at ease, makes you feel happy when you come to work. So it's kind of like you know this is our workplace and we also feel happy coming into our collective workplace where we work with other people as well. So exciting times for us, excited to be here, feel supported, feel like we're in a good place and we're looking forward to a big year of growth next year. So, yeah, thanks.
Samuel Wines:No worries and thanks for thanks for finding time to sit down as well. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it's been awesome having you on the show and great to finally get this one done. It's it's been like six months of like, yeah, next time this time I'm surfing, I'm over here, so, uh, no, it's good that we've been able to make it happen and, um, no, I really appreciate all the work you're doing, so thanks so much yeah, thanks, sam, really appreciate it, ciao thank you for tuning in to another episode of the strange attractor.
Samuel Wines:Uh, yeah, a bit of a short one and a sweet one this time round.
Samuel Wines:Um, we've got a couple more coming up soon with some of our other new members and we'll probably start branching out into additional content as well. Um, I guess that systems view of life, transdisciplinary thinking, bioregional learning center, all of these other sort of interesting areas and stuff that we're curious about. We're going to be doing a little bit more of that now that we've sort of got through most of the members that we've currently got. So stay tuned. I think it's going to be really fun, as we start to branch out the content that we create, speaking a little bit more as well to like some of the challenge areas and things that we see in the world, that might be fun to try and address those generator functions of problems that we face in the world using that complexity-informed, wide-boundary thinking systems view of life approach. So, yeah, there'll be probably a few more of those coming up soon and, yeah, we're always curious to hear your feedback. So just reach out, let us know what you think and we look forward to welcome you back to the channel sometime soon. Bye.
