The Strange Attractor
The Strange Attractor
From Lab Bench To Dinner Plate: Funding, Regulation, And The Future Of Cultivated Meat In Australia with Paul Bevan
What does a $10k cultivated meat dumpling taste like?
Pretty great.
But honestly, that’s not the point.
The real story is how fast that price is free-falling, and what that unlocks for real food on real plates. In this episode, we sit down with Magic Valley CEO Paul Bevan to get past the headlines and into the gritty, resilient work of building a cultivated meat company in Australia.
We kick off with culture, because tech is easy compared to humans. Paul shares why hiring for outcomes over optics is essential, and how the best interns don’t wait for job descriptions; they earn them by solving obvious problems early.
From there, we dig into the power of storytelling and marketing, especially when you don’t have a product yet. In emerging categories, education is the product. Media isn’t vanity, it’s scaffolding. It is how you build trust with investors, regulators and supply chain partners.
Then we talk money. Mission-aligned angels, smaller VCs who understand timelines, matched grants like the Industry Growth Program, and making the most of Australia’s R&D Tax Incentive. We touch on why crowdfunding works best when you already have a crowd, and why disciplined runway beats hype every time.
And the plot twist? The economics are finally shifting. Food-grade suppliers are undercutting pharma, bioreactors once costing millions are dropping into six-figure territory, and culture media is falling fast with a credible path to one dollar a litre. Add FSANZ’s dedicated cellular agriculture pathway, and the route to viable products looks far more concrete than the doom-scrolling suggests.
If you’re into cultivated meat, future-fit food systems or the art of founder survival in tough markets (with integrity, clarity and a dash of cheek), this episode is for you.
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Hello and welcome to The Strange Attractor, an experimental podcast from Colabs, a transdisciplinary innovation hub and biotechnology co-working lab based in Melbourne, Australia. I'm your co-host, Sam Wines, and alongside my co-founder Andrew Gray, we'll delve deep into the intersection of biology, technology, and society through the lens of complexity and systems thinking. Join us on a journey of discovery as we explore how transdisciplinary innovation, informed by life's regenerative patterns and processes, could help us catalyze the transition towards a thriving future for people and the planet. Hello and welcome to another episode of The Strange Attractor. For this podcast, we sat down with Paul Bevan, the CEO of Magic Valley, for a second time round just to get a bit of an update on how things have been panning out since our last podcast. I think it was about a year or so ago. So we figured it would be nice to get him back on to give us some updates on all things cultivated meat. So yeah, I hope you enjoy this conversation with Paul. It's always a pleasure having a chat. So yeah, enjoy this conversation with Paul Bevan from Magic Valley. Welcome. Yeah, this is our second podcast, second time we've sat down for a chat. So founder of Magic Valley, you've one of our longest standing members now, I reckon it would probably almost have to be longest standing member. And by that I I mean that is that is no mean feat to to maintain your ability to stand amidst the the chaos of the past sort of year and a half with everything going on. So yeah, thanks so much for sitting down again and yeah, I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01:Alright, Sam, thanks for having me. It's been uh been a long time between chats, so yeah, good to sit down. Sweet. All right.
SPEAKER_00:Um sick, let me get my little notebook out. Um just in case you say anything really wise and wonderful for me to No no danger of that happening.
SPEAKER_01:For me to jot something down. Really nervous. I feel like it's some sort of like job interview.
SPEAKER_00:It could be. So so Mr. Bevan, please tell me um why we should look at hiring you for Magic Valley. What um what skills do you bring to the table?
SPEAKER_01:I have uh six years of experience in the exact role. Really? Yeah, don't ask me to tell you about a time when I anything to no, I can't.
SPEAKER_00:Job interviews are one of those weird things. I've never really vibed with them. Like I kind of feel like you know to meet someone like, okay, cool, great. Like I I get you, and then I don't really need you to tell me how good you are. I'd rather see how good you are. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I have no idea where we're gonna start with this either, but I mean, damn, that that's like a that's an interesting thing from my perspective. I'm curious, yeah, how did how did you go about hiring or bringing people onto the team? Because ours is very intuitive, and then it's kind of like, let's just throw you into the chaos and see what happens.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's really funny how things have evolved because I guess I came from um, you know, I went from a corporate background where we were like I was hiring people, which was a very, you know, structured process, interview process, multiple rounds of of interviews. Um, you know, obviously a written application first, and then you got multiple rounds of interviews and questions and you know, assigning people scores and all that sort of thing. So then going and and working in a gym, right? Where there's none of that. Like it's much more it's it's it's like, you know, it's can you submit me? No, like you know, like it's much more um uh pragmatic and tangible, and and then to to here where I'm dealing with completely different skill sets of people that I don't really have any experience in. So yeah, ours is very much like yours now. It's like, well, someone vouches that you're a good person, great, like that's good enough. Like, you know, take people at their word and then like, oh, here you go, let's see what happens, type thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's that's why we stress it. Like we've we've just started up a recent um like conversational series interviewing interns or people who've still at uni but have got work at startups. Because yeah, it is really interesting hearing how different like the act like when you actually have to do work in a startup uh compared to like normal conventional work, it's just such a different approach and like almost antithetical to the way in which we're um also taught things at uni. Like uni is very like, okay, cool, there's a there is a right and a wrong answer for this test for the most part, you know. This is a big sweeping generalization. But yeah, when you're thrown into you know startup land, it's kind of like no idea, it might even work right now and actually be bad in the long term. Like, who knows with these things, you kind of just gotta see how it goes. It's very like nonlinear and all over the place and messy. And yeah, just finding people who have the capacity to navigate that and potentially steward others through the the messiness of it all. Um, yeah, feels really important.
SPEAKER_01:Well, everything changes so dramatically. Like you you could give someone a task where you want X outcome and then they'll do that and then you'll change your mind, or something changes in the business in terms of priorities, and you're like, I want now we need Y outcome. And they'll be like, Well, you told me you needed X. Well, now okay, I did, but now we need Y, and you need to be able to deal with that.
SPEAKER_00:It's like job descriptions. I feel like um when we when we brought Jan on to the team, or when he brought himself on, he was kind of just like, I'm gonna work for you guys until you hire me. And we're like, Oh, okay. Um, awesome. Um, but yeah, like the job description was like, Oh, well, maybe it's this, you know, maybe it's like strategy and hops. And then like three weeks later, it's like maybe it's slightly, and then it just like constantly shifts and changes, and it can be really hard to pin pin down when you're such like a small company where everyone kind of has to do a little bit of everything. But as we've started to grow, and I'm curious, you know, if this is something that you're having to go through as well. It's like as you start to grow, it's like things start to get a little bit more passed out into okay, cool, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do that. And that process is um, I don't know, it's we found it really, really interesting with having to scale up to multiple sites and then exploring Sydney as well. It's kind of like, oh gosh, like how do we how do we make this work whilst keeping the heart of like what makes this thing special? And I imagine, you know, no different to like MV, you know, it's like how do you bring people into the team and make sure that as it as it grows, it still keeps that sort of core essence.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, my experience is exactly the same. And and and particularly like Jarn's approach, I think is the best approach for someone to show you like what they can actually do and how they're gonna help the company and and move you forward is much better than someone you know sending a cold email going, Oh, I've got this qualification and that qualification, particularly when you're in a startup. Like it's so outcome-based. Like you need to know and that people can do what you need them to do and show you that they can help you and how they're gonna, you know, push you forward as opposed to theoretically, you know, what they might be able to to do.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of four things I read in a book that I'd love to test out with you. Yeah. Yeah. Versus like, yeah, to that point, like, okay, cool. Like they might approach you and say, how can I help with something? Or is there anything you might need a hand with? Or actually coming to you with, hey, I've looked at what you're doing. I reckon you could try this, this, and this. And it's like, yeah, it's a real difference when people come at you with like it's pre-prepared rather than just like spraying out to try and find anyone who'll try and give you a job or something like that. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. It's because that's giving you more work. Like if you come to me and go, Oh, I've got this great background in, I don't know, marketing, well, then I have to go and figure out what you can do and how you can help us. Whereas if you come to me and go, oh, I've had a look at your business and I can do this and this will help you get to this, it's completely different. It's like chalk and cheese.
SPEAKER_00:How did you so is that like I'm curious, like uh, because you've had a couple of interns come through now as well. Um, and how have you found that whole process of like bringing people through? Has there been those like the differences between folks who are very much like, all right, I'm in it to win it, I'm gonna figure out what needs to be done, versus people who are like, oh my God, this is not what I thought I'd be getting into.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we've had a really good run with interns probably over the last 12 to to 18 months, I guess it's been. Um, and different um roles, really. So we've had interns in the lab, and just recently we've had no interns on the on the commercial side as well.
SPEAKER_00:Cool. Yeah, I haven't seen any. I've been down in Notting Hill the last like eight, twelve months.
SPEAKER_01:I've missed kind of like I was gonna say I haven't seen you in about a year, so that that that checks out. Um yeah, so we so we've had we've had a mix of of both. And it you're right, there is a um there is a real difference. And it's not just with interns, it's with everyone, but there is a real difference uh in levels of I guess proactivity uh and also ownership, I guess. Um and in obviously a startup environment, you know, the more proactive someone is and and the more they take ownership of things, the the better and the and the further they'll go. Um whereas you know, as opposed to you know sitting back and waiting to be told and you know having theoretical answers, people that just jump in and and do things are you know worth their weight in gold.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I when I think of that, I think of um like Ella when she sort of jumped into the to the mix with you guys, like didn't even necessarily have the marketing background, right? It was Scicom, I believe, like she did like one unit on it. And then it's like, all right, I'm this this is my life now. I'm gonna I'm gonna steer this ship. Um and it's been wonderful to watch that, you know, that whole arc of that happening. Um so yeah, but that's a really good case in point of kind of what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01:Perfect example of someone coming to us and saying, Oh, I've had a look at your social media, you know, I think um, you know, you could get a lot of improvement from doing this, this, and this. And oh, here you go. I've already done it. Here it is. Yeah, yeah. And so that just created a role out of thin air because we weren't looking for anyone, or there was no role. It was just someone coming to us and going, I can help you move from A to B. Away you go.
SPEAKER_00:I because I did think it was a really strange like next thing. Because like a lot of other, you know, of our other members, they all acknowledge the importance of marketing and content creation and narrative storytelling. But um, you know, like, oh, we can't afford that, we can't afford that. And it was I always thought it was quite an interesting take. And I guess, you know, you guys are a consumer-facing product in a way. Like it's like a yeah, B2B.
SPEAKER_01:Well, eventually we will be.
SPEAKER_00:We don't have a product at this point. I mean, I've eaten something.
SPEAKER_01:True. That's true. But sorry, no, go on.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no. I honestly lost the train of thought.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I can't remember. We've got a I mean, we've got a really large education piece. Like, obviously, every business is different. We've got a really large education piece with the with the innovation which you've eaten um that you know that that we're developing. So, you know, you've got to educate the the consumer. Um, we don't have a product available for for sale as yet. So we're different to a lot of businesses in that regard. But marketing is still really important for a number of reasons, even if you're not, you know, at the point of selling a product.
SPEAKER_00:Signaling the process along the journey, right? It's like, hey, we've come from here to here and like look how awesome this is. And I really that's what I loved about how you guys had the podcast up and running so so early on. You know, like, yeah, we need to be talking about this and the narrative and what's going on. And um, yeah, just made for really entertaining content as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I mean, things have changed a lot over, you know, the last five or six years. Whereas, you know, we talk to people or I would talk to people about you know what we would have called then clean meat, you know, people call it cult swagger meat now, as we do. Um, but I would have mentioned that then and like nobody knew had any idea what I was talking about. Whereas now, you know, it's probably about half the people that you know you interact with have at least heard about it, understand it, have got some knowledge of it. But just going back to the marketing piece, it's really important for investment as well. Because if people don't know who you are, haven't heard about you, you know, how can they invest in you if they if if you're not visible? And so not only with the podcasts, you know, we've done you know as much TV as we possibly can as well to bridge that getting into mainstream.
SPEAKER_00:Probably like more than any of our members, I think you've ticked the TV, the TV bucket. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But again, it's just, you know, we can be in, you know, industry publications or industry media or whatever, which is which is great. Um, but to to broaden that um base of you know people being able to see you, you need to get into get into mainstream. And so we'll we'll take any of those opportunities as as they come up.
SPEAKER_00:Speaking of mainstream, um, what's been your favorite like one of those TV appearances? Like, as I saw you. None of them. I hate it. I feel like because you Shark Tanked it or something like that, right? You had Gordon Ramsay.
SPEAKER_01:Shark Tank styles, Gordon Ramsay's um food stars with uh both both Gordon Ramsay and and Janine Ellis, where yes, we did have to go and pitch pitch the business or do do multiple pitches throughout the I guess the casting for the show, but yeah, the actual show, yeah, you you you're pitching the the the business, which was um yeah, very intimidating. Yeah, super intimidating. A bit like this, really, with all the cameras and lights.
SPEAKER_00:I know it's a bit like that. And a star that I'm in front of. Yeah. Stop it. Uh yeah, it's funny when you just pick up by osmosis, like when I was in that space. I'm like, okay, cool, that's where you put a light, that's how it works. I guess it's kind of just like basic geometry, not to try and take it away like lighting is an art form, but um, yeah, it's kind of just like geometry. It's like, okay, cool, yeah, that makes sense. Um the shark tank thing. Do they invest?
SPEAKER_01:No, we didn't, we we we didn't get any direct investment um from Gordon or Janine. But you know, having said that, and this really proves that I mean it's hard to quantify, but like so many people um, you know, that we speak to now will say, Oh, I saw you on Gordon Ramsay's Food SARS, oh, I see Gordon Ramsay's charge of product. And so I think that um you know credibility that that adds in terms of not just Gordon Ramsay, but you know, mainstream TV, for example, um, gives you that you know added credibility of um you know your business and and what you're doing and gives you some validation. And that that again, it's really hard to quantify, but similar with the podcast as well, like people will say to us, you know, um uh long after they've invested, they're like, oh, I've listened to your entire podcast series, you know, and and and you just don't know how much that that actually um you know adds to people making an investment decision or a purchase decision or or whatever the case may be.
SPEAKER_00:I I agree, man. It's like every one of those individual points out there where if you don't talk about it, people don't know. Yeah. But and and the more information that's out there, the more easy it is for people to relate to it. And then the more they become familiar with it, the more they are more likely to invest in it or more likely to purchase that product. But even, you know, yeah, like we call it marketing, but it's it really is just like trying to share a narrative and open up the Overton window of what's possible and being like, look, this is a really viable way to feed people. Yes, like acknowledging that there is still like energy things that we need to try and sort out and also getting things to scale. But hey, like here is a potential, you know, method of the future of food, and it is something worth exploring and investing in and sort of seeing how it goes. Um, and I mean, yeah, so in that time since since you've been here as one of our first members, we've had so many cultivated meat companies come through as well. So it really does feel like it's it's starting to build a bit of a movement. We've even got the peak body here as well, Salag Australia, which I think we've just gone. Did we? How do we go with um I feel like we've just gone in on something recently with you guys? Do you remember what it was? Are we allowed to talk about that yet? I don't know what we're talking about, so I don't know if I can help you there. What are we talking? What are we talking about? Oh, I think so there was a we're doing something with Salag Australia, maybe looking at trying to get some grant funding to help cultivated meat companies with access to infrastructure.
SPEAKER_01:Ah, yeah. I don't know if you've Yeah, there's plenty of those things going on in the background in terms of like joint applications and submissions. Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:It feels very alive right now with collaboration, even you know, between different organizations. Like I know you guys have been chatting with Pythag about stuff as well. It just really feels like I don't know, like we it's one thing to again with marketing and content creation, it's one thing to say a thing and be like, oh, this is amazing, or like my product does this, and it's or you know, collaboration is key. It's another thing to like witness it happen firsthand in these spaces that we're trying to make and then facilitate that. So yeah, having like having Pythag and you guys working with them and then Celeg Australia as well, it's like um, I don't know, it really does feel like that little ecosystem is starting to to bubble away.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it's and you know how much I love it here and love you and um you know, all the help that you you've given us. But even in building, as you said, building the ecosystem, being able to, you know, engage with people face to face on a daily basis just makes those relationships um so much more uh easy, I guess, to progress to like collaborations and and that sort of thing. Um and it really is invaluable to you know to what we're building because we've been through you know a really quiet period, I think, in terms of the industry over probably 12 to 18 months, where it's been really hard for for everyone. Um, you know, but even being able to talk to other people within the industry, you know, talk to another founder, um, talk to people that are going through you know similar headwinds that you're going through, and then come out the other side of it, which I think we, you know, we've been doing over the past probably three, three or four months, um, work on more collaborations, you know, do more joint ventures. Uh yeah, it's just super, super valuable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, man. It's been, it really has been hectic. Like the last 12 months, uh, I think across the board for for innovation, we we really noticed like an like a dip in people expressing interest or people expressing interest, but then being like, oh, but like, you know, our investors are just, you know, not uh not putting the money down, or there's a there was a lot of, I don't know whether it's the stuff happening in the US with the tariffs, I don't know whether it's other geopolitical tensions that are happening through APAC or I don't know, whether the wind's just blowing the wrong way, but it really has felt like like everywhere, say aside from the classics like MedTech, Health Tech, which seem to kind of weather all storms. Like, and I guess as well, AI, the real hype bubble of AI was sort of like last year as well, with um GPT 4 and stuff coming out. Um, yeah, so you're feeling like it's it's coming back on track. So that's exciting. I mean, I feel like you won what did you win? Like most perseverant founder of the year award. Was that what what was that?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that sounds pretty good. Um, yeah, yeah, something something something like that. Um what was the actual tit title of it? No, I don't don't ask, I don't know. I'm not gonna remember now.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like it was something like that. I remember seeing it and I'm like, I have to actually agree with that award. Like, I feel like you are someone who just like really you've committed to this and you're just like pushing as hard as you can, even though it's pushing you beyond breaking point multiple times, you know. Um, and you just no matter what, you're still just like, I know that this can be done and that this is a worthwhile mission, and I'm gonna try and make it happen sort of no matter what the cost. And yeah, like I don't know, a lot of the time we might not hear the sacrifice or the the stories about how bloody hard it is, um, you know, because it all happens behind closed doors, like you're saying when we talk to other people in the space. But um no, yeah, just very much like a public hat tip to you for like just grinding away because I know how painful it can be to try and make something happen, even though other people are like, Yeah, yeah, sure, that's great, but maybe not actively supporting if that makes sense. Yeah. Like plenty of people cheering on from the sidelines. Yeah. Or like getting mauled by a lion.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watching you get mauled. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, I appreciate that. Yeah, look, it's uh it's definitely been uh, you know, a tough, tough few years to be perfectly honest. And you know, as I mentioned before, you know, we're super grateful for for your support, collab support. And without it, we wouldn't have we wouldn't have got through it. But I think, you know, through those times, you know, the the the trust that you have, I guess, in your team and the and the people around you to be able to get through it um and see it through is is is really important. And you know, you go through some of those hard times, but it also, you know, you've got to have some uncomfortable conversations a lot of the time and you and you're facing things that you you know you never expected and you never thought would would come up. But I've found that you know, through that, those relationships have actually strengthened through those through those really difficult times. You know, relationships that you didn't think were, you know, that deep turn out to be way deeper than than than you expect. And it just really fortifies you like for for moving forward. I mean, as you said, like I'm pretty committed. I it might be, you know, I I don't know if this is a personality trait or a personality fault, but I'm like pretty stubborn and determined to make sure that that this is successful. Um and so I just keep keep on persevering, as as you said, and you come up with solutions that you know you you just find a way. You just have to find a way. And so being through many of those those periods over the past, you know, particularly the last 12 months, when you know, particularly companies in in our space, you know, would have faced uh you know, it's not just us, it's the entire industry in terms of like fundraising challenges, and which is really difficult when you know you're a pre-revenue company and you you're relying on investors or or grants uh to be able to just run the business on a day-to-day basis, you know, let alone hit milestones and make progress and push the business forward. You know, we've also had a you know a lot of great uh investors, particularly mission-aligned uh investors, that um, you know, helps you know on a day-to-day basis, you know, it's not that you need a reminder of why you're doing it, but um, you know, as you know, I'm completely mission-driven in in terms of what we're doing. And, you know, those people that are invested in you, you know, you've got to think that, you know, that you might not hear from them all the time, but they've supported you, you know, they've got skin in the game, you know, as it were. Um, and there's just so many drivers, you know, for for what we're doing. Obviously for me, it's you know, around animal welfare, but um, you know, there's so many reasons for us to be doing what we're doing, and it really does need to happen. And so um, yeah, I'm pretty uh pretty bloody-minded when it when it comes to that. And but you know, having said that, you know, and you've seen them, um, there's been a lot of downtimes, you know, as well. That's been, you know, you just you don't know what to do. You're like, you're hit with this hurdle and it's like, I I you just don't know what to do. Um, you know, and it's people like yourself, other founders, you know, that you rely on um to be able to not necessarily come up with a solution, but just someone that you can relate to and have that conversation with. It's been seen and heard sometimes is is all that it matters. Yeah, or whatever the saying is, you know, a problem shared is a problem halved, or you know, what whatever it is. And it it it it's so true because you you are isolated a lot of the time. And you know, as a solo founder, um you feel that uh you know a lot. And depending on your personality type, some people will withdraw, some people you know will need to talk through things a lot more. Um but it is really it is super, super, super challenging. And then, you know, sometimes you know you might be embarrassed to to share things, you know, if things are going badly or you don't know how to solve a problem, you know, there's that um you know, reticence to to talk about it and bring it into the open. You know, what are the people going to judge me? You know, what are they gonna say, you know, all sorts of things. And it's really difficult as a business owner because, you know, as you said, you know, they've got people cheering you on from the from the sidelines, but um and people will give you like m well-meaning advice as as well. But it you know, that will often come from um you know, people that haven't had the same experience. And it's it's you know, the the heart is in the right place, but that what they're telling you is completely either useless or detriment detrimental or you know, and but you know, you've got to take that on board. Like people are, you know, people are are trying to help, but quite oftentimes, you know, that is you know not so helpful. Yeah. So, you know, there are other ways you can support, you know, if you've got a you know, a friend or a partner or you know, whatever that's that you know has a business and you know you're not experienced in that area, you know, there's other ways you can support that person. And quite often it's just it's just listening to them and letting them know that you know they're they're not alone and you're there for them and you don't have to offer you know actual you know practical solutions to you know the the problems that are going on. You just need to be there. And yeah, I think that's really overlooked and quite important.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I think since we've since you guys have been here, we've always been like, oh, we need to try and you know create like that founder club or a space for people to just get together and chat. But it's so hard because everyone is it's like hurting cats, like and then hurting the cats' cats. It's it's the just so hard to be able to bring people together. But every time you know we do have things like that or people do catch each other, it's always so it seems like such a beneficial thing for people to be able to just like share space with one another. And and to your yeah, I think that was such a really good point about um uh like a like a problem shared is like then split split in half, so to speak. It it really does feel like so much of the time it yeah, it's not about being in so much of what we do is being in solution mode at all times. So it can be nice, yeah, for that to be turned off and just the I got I got no idea, man. I'm not looking for an answer, but it's just like I'm pretty burnt out. And then a lot of the time, you know, from that place of just being heard, like the solution, you know, the problem is away. A lot of the time, you know, something might just pop up and you're like, oh great, like there, there it is. Like that when you have that moment of just like fuck.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, like those those founder interactions are are just invaluable. And particularly, you know, what I've seen over the past 18 months, everyone you know is so focused on solving those problems that you know you just become very insular. And you know, people that you would have you know spoken to previously or collaborated with previously, everyone has just been focused on their own business and you know, keeping going and you know, whether it's surviving or sorting out problems or you know, making you know really difficult decisions to I don't know, pivot or end your business or whatever. But everyone you know is just focused on that and you lose that or you can lose that um you know interaction with with other people and other founders and and and other companies through that. But that's when you need it the most to be able to, you know, share those stories, provide support, you know, receive support, etc.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, actually on that note, man, there's been quite a few high profile startups um going to admission, voluntary admission lately. Like we've had great rap and I know natural fiber welding and other materials company based in the US. Um, it has felt like it's been a bit of a hectic time for folks. I like, why are you still here? Have you no, no, no, seriously, because it it feels like so many, and I I I think I know where this is gonna go, but I'm trying not to steer it there and just see if it comes out in conversation. But I'm really curious as to how you've managed to like maintain, sustain, keep things going. Like I've just yeah, because there's a lot of folks who've come in and they like almost like a supernova, they're like, Yeah, we're gonna like thousand X, and then they're just like you know. What is it that you think has allowed you guys to persevere?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, obviously, um, yeah, as we mentioned, I'm pretty stubborn, so that probably helps. No, it doesn't. No, you're right. Look, I I just have a I just have this um like overwhelming, all-encompassing belief and that this is the way forward and it it it will be successful. Um, and it is you know the best way to you know help animals. And you know, personally, like I'm all in and have been all in, you know, on the business from from from when it started because I do like genuinely believe that this is the the way to have the biggest impact for for animals. Obviously, there's a whole lot of other benefits um in terms of cultivated meat um when it comes to um you know the environment. Um we can we can go on and on around you know human health and you know all those sorts of things, food security, um, food safety, you know, there's so many, so many benefits um to it. And so, you know, I I'm all in um on that. Uh if I was just doing this um for you know a financial return, um, it would have made absolutely no sense to to keep going. Um, you know, I would have thrown it in months, if not years ago.
SPEAKER_00:Not a fame and fortune endeavor, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01:No, and if you know, if as you know, I I was I wasn't aware of those companies, what had happened to those companies you've mentioned. Um and even within our our industry, you know, there's been companies go go by the wayside. Um and you know, maybe their technology didn't work or you know, it it could be for a you know a myriad of reasons. Uh obviously not being able to raise funding is a a a massive one, which is quite often not a reflection of you know your idea or or or innovation um or or business. Um, but it's just a you know a result of you know the climate at the time. But um, you know, for us, you know, I just have that. overwhelming belief in in what we're doing, which drives me forward. But again, it's you know reflecting on the people you know that have supported us as well, because we've got uh we've got quite a lot of in investors now, but uh, you know, the majority of those are you know smaller investors, angel investors, um, they're very much mission aligned. They believe in in what we're doing. And I view that responsibility of them investing, um, like I take that very, very, very seriously in terms of the trust that they've put in in us and in me in terms of building this solution, which is going to provide um, you know, a lot of uh benefits to um as I've mentioned about a hundred times now, you know, animals, but also, you know, for um you know generations going forward as well. And I just take that like very, very, very, very seriously in that people have, you know, supported us, you know, they've got skin in the game and they believe in in in what we're doing. And not just us as Magic Valley, but as you know, cultivated meat as a solution. And so I take that responsibility seriously, but I also take the responsibility of getting a result for animals very seriously as well. And there's a number of people within particularly the vegan community that have also supported us as well. And I see what we're doing as a part of that and being part of that community. And so I have this responsibility to them as well. And so that pushes me forward as as well. And so you know as I've mentioned I really do believe in this solution. We've got you know we've had a lot of headwinds you know whether it comes to to fundraising or you know the technology or whatever the case may be. Obviously we have you know regulations and consumer acceptance and and all those sorts of things. But it just keeps me going like thinking about you know who has um supported us what is the end goal that that we're working towards and just this um unwavering belief um I can't remember who it was that said this but they described it as delusional optimism and and and you have to be like on the psionic calling you know one of those as well. Exactly you know you're working on this innovation that you know people might not know that they um need but you're convinced that you know it's it's it's necessary and and it's required and you just have this delusional optimism that it that it's going to be successful. And I guess um that's what just you know keeps keeps me going.
SPEAKER_00:I mean there is that right but you've got to be like financially pragmatic and strategically I don't know what the right way of putting that would be like you just have to be able to think well and clearly and like yes you're delusionally optimistic but you're not letting that cloud your capacity for seeing how you can then make it through this and then what your runway is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like every time we talk about runway or anything like that, I feel like you know you're like this is how much I've got this is how much I'm gonna need for this little bit here. Like it just feels like you've got that side of things very down pat um which seems to be I guess an area that a lot of other founders might kind of be a bit more splashing of cash or or this, that and the other which you tend to see a lot of the high profile companies um having issues it tends to be around like maybe not managing funds incredibly well or or to your point it could just be like a lot of time it is wrong time, wrong place. Yeah. Like now especially for you know for biomaterials. I feel like last year after the massive raises that happened in the food for the food tech space it was like a bit of a doldrums as you said moment for you guys. But still having those people come in and investing in what you're doing and investing in you guys and believing in it. But yeah I don't know is like there anything from that sort of financial side of things that you think like because that's kind of your your bread and butter, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah I mean it's a a really interesting point and you know we've seen particularly in our industry a lot of money wasted um you know money going on um you know the the into the wrong hands into the you know into the wrong technologies you know development of the wrong technologies um and just a lot of a lot of waste and I'm sure that happens across industries right um and particularly when it comes to you know venture capital funding. And obviously I think a lot of it you know depends on your background. I think a lot of it comes from your childhood as well like how you grew up you know you know what what was your relationship with money you know what financial background do you come from you know were you was your family wealthy were you were your parents wealthy wealthy did you do it hard did you have to work um and your early relationship with with money but then you know after that I think a lot of it comes down to you know experience and you know as you mentioned you know my background you know primarily um you know I worked in finance I worked in risk management um I did that for a number of years and then I had other businesses prior to to Magic Valley um you know so I founded two businesses from scratch so you're starting with with nothing which very quickly um gives you a crash course um in resourcefulness yeah yeah in resourcefulness you know um managing um uh you know your your cash flow and and limited resources but also in you know learning about sales and marketing very quickly as as well um you know because I came out of which I'm sure a lot of people do you know you come out of a a fairly um you know senior uh position within in within the corporate space and you know you think oh you know I've managed these teams and you know I've got this you know budget and numbers and yeah you know you've got this money that's just given to you that you know it's your job to to spend um and and you you know you you you do that but then you know you go into a business and you're like hey I know how to run a business and yeah I know how to manage this and do that and then all of a sudden like you've never done sales and marketing in your life and it's like well where do you think the money is going to come from right it's coming from acquiring customers and doing marketing and and doing sales. So I literally started two businesses from scratch. So you know zero revenue you put your own money in you've got to start a business and and find customers and so um you know I'd done that with two businesses previously um you know so very aware of you know where you know money should be spent um you know it's interesting that you mentioned you know the marketing role before you know my approach to that is probably very different to as you've mentioned to to other founders where it's the lifeblood of your of your business because if you know you can't be found then you know you're not getting customers, you're not getting investment, like none of that's happening. So it is very important. But being able to to manage through that, you know, obviously a lot depends on your risk tolerance as well. I'd say mine is higher than the average person. Which is ironic working in risk. Yep very very much so um but you know you've got to be able to as you said you know allocate those resources um you've got to be able to budget um you can't just you know fritter money away and we've primarily you know spent our money you know that we've raised on the technology you know on the science you know excluding the the the marketing stuff that we do but other than that you know I run everything on the commercial side like there's just me and there and there has been for the entire time. Man that's so impressive. All of our money has has gone into into the tech and the the technology development uh you know anything to do with you know creating the the the actual product and that's a conscious decision um in terms of you know milestones we need to hit you know how do we how do we progress forward, you know, raise more capital, etc. And so I think it really does, you know, it comes down to you know your your your personal experience. You know if you if you're stepping out of um you know like a corporate role and you know you raise all this money and you've got this pile of money sitting there and then your experience is well well we just spent it and we do this and you don't really have to be accountable for it. And that flows over into you know your startup you're gonna you're gonna be in a world of hurt very, very quickly. And so I think it just depends on your experience. Yeah but that's that's I guess how I feel.
SPEAKER_00:Did you were you one of those ones who started raising money in the little piggy bank early what was your what was your fight like how was how was your upbringing around money because I know mine wasn't great and this is something that I'm constantly having to learn how to like handle this and it's not their fault. It was just you know that was the time that they grew up and from their socioeconomic background and so I've had to learn a lot of this myself and I'm not very good at all at it. But yeah, was it something that you picked up on an early age or something that you learned as a response to things in earlier life where you're like I'm not not I'm gonna make sure that does not happen.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I think I think it's a lot of that to be perfectly honest where you know you grow up through um you know challenging circumstances at at times and um you know you probably um you know see friends around you or you know people at school or that sort of thing have a very different experience than than you have. If you go through some tough times, I think a lot of that fortifies you to be like I'm never going to be in this situation again. And and I guess it develops from there. And then you know you educate yourself and um you know learn um you know about you know finances and money and um you know wealth management and risk management um you know uh all of those sorts of things. And it just you know some people are into it and some people aren't and so some people it will come naturally to you know others it won't but um I think there's always the opportunity to to learn about that. And look any experience that you have you know not necessarily around saving money but um you know if you had a lemonade stand or you know what whatever or you've got to you know work for your pocket money and and those sorts of things I think that teaches you um a lot of lessons as as well and even then you know when you begin to you know start working and um you know you you you get paid I don't know X amount per fortnight or per month um you know regardless of how hard you work and then you start thinking to yourself I'm doing all this work I'm doing all this extra I'm getting paid the exact same amount you know old mate over here does no work does nothing he's getting paid the same as me and that starts I guess your entrepreneurial brain thinking I'm like well hang on if I worked for myself I could you know my earning capacity is unlimited. Why am I doing all this work for this employer and I'm just getting paid the the same amount of money and you know other people are are benefiting from it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I've had very similar I mean that I've I've never really aside from like you know poor lifeguarding or like working in retail when you're going through uni like I've always ended up working for myself for a for a similar reason just been like just do this myself. Yeah like doesn't make much more sense than that. But that's just you know a personality type there's so many other people that I know who are like absolutely hell no I would rather just turn it off you know nine to five that's it and if I can do what you said before like get by on seemingly doing enough and then only and getting paid you know for the bare minimum but it looks good enough. Like they're happy with that. But yeah, each are their own right 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's definitely a personality thing and not everyone should start a business absolutely I do not recommend it.
SPEAKER_00:I like I recommend against it unless it's absolutely necessary right if it's a if it's a mission calling or if it's something that there is a clear challenge that we need to face and to address you know whether it's like hey we've got like 10 years of topsoils left in Australia or like food security is going to be a really big problem or like water you know all of these sort of things that are real genuine challenges that we're gonna face over the next 10 to 15, 20 years with the changing climate and political stuff like yeah that yeah if you're called to that by all means like commit to it because we are going to have to address those things. But if it's something that you're kind of like to your point before like oh this would be pretty cool to do because like everyone really likes this space like maybe I'll do an AI startup because that's trendy. Yeah you know or if it's a power grab, you know, it's probably people I think people can see through it to be perfectly honest. And I think that authenticity is super important.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah and look at I think at the other thing as well I mean if you're doing something just for the money you're not gonna stick it out when times get tough. I mean I think that's you know blatantly obvious. And the other caveat I would say is you know you might have a great idea and you might want to do something that's going to have a huge impact but it might not be a great business. You know the the it the commercial reality might be that this isn't a great business. This invention's great and this is a great idea.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man we say it all the time so many people come to us and it's like yeah this is sick but is it you know it's the whole desirable viable feasible kind of thing it's like yeah great that's nice but does it does it even if we don't like capitalism you know with all its flaws it's like does it operate within that system and if not like good good luck. You know exactly um it's an unfortunate reality of having to work in this space it's like I would much rather it was like co-ops and you know we were doing local regional economies and you know all the money flowed back into place but you know that's not where we are right now and and we have to work with what we've got to try and bring about those sort of changes. Have you actually have you experimented with any novel financing facilities or or ways to be to get money into Magic Valley? Define novels Sam I don't mean like a drug cartel or something like that. But like um I don't know like have you looked into Dow's crypto have you explored um you know things like Birchal have you got like like like I'd be very curious to know yeah or is it all just kind of like finding those values line people yeah no I'd say all of them. So except the drug cartel just to clarify.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah no not not the drug cartel um nothing illegal. So yeah look we've explored all of those avenues and it it's it's really interesting because I know a lot of companies you know have done you know whether it's crowdfunding um you know early on uh we looked at um you know initial coin offerings and and those sorts of things as well um you know when it comes to to the blockchain we also looked at you know crowdfunding really um uh in in intently and uh you know there's a lot of things that you know look good from you know the outside that might not be good for your particular business you know there's a lot of um uh you know costs involved there's a lot of marketing obviously again because if no one knows about your offer they can't invest in in in the offer um and when it comes to crowdfunding you know what we sort of have uh uncovered is that you know you've got to have that crowd you know you've got to have the crowd with fund yeah and typically you know food it food businesses go really well in that space um but you know for someone like us who doesn't have a product you know we don't have that crowd you know so we don't have that group of users that you know already use our product love our product uh and would you know love to in invest in it and so for us it's always been oh we just don't know if this is the right fit for us. So yeah so we've had a look at that um we've most of our as I mentioned most of our investors are you know mission aligned they're they're angel investors we've um got a couple of smaller VCs on it on our cap table as well um obviously there's you know larger VC which you know a lot of companies um go down we received our first government grant earlier this year as well yeah through the through the industry growth program um which has been great um not just uh in terms of the funding but you know the additional programs that they offer as well has been like super super beneficial um and it's really the first um government grant that we've really been eligible for isn't that oh man we we try and tell them this all the time it's like yo like we need to address the grants because they're either clearly made with a specific company or type of person in mind which don't get me wrong like that tends to be the case a lot of the time like we've got grants that have been made for us like that has happened multiple times.
SPEAKER_00:So I totally understand that. But yeah it is so strange how we talk about wanting to support startups but like it's like oh yeah if you've got five million revenue already or if you want a one-to-one match this like three million dollar grant in or like 20 FTE and you're like yeah like none of these things fit the criteria and almost everyone we know when applying for grants are having to apply as an exemption you know yeah so it is and and this is something that we again why we've been chatting with Cellag Australia why we're talking to the government and looking at potentially getting some um additional funding is to try and get enough money for people to be able to do work at Colabs for six to 12 months hire people like because it's such a small amount of money compared to what they might allocate out for a grant to be able to let someone validate something over six months. And we could be doing that and be a very entrepreneurial state but um yeah it's like a lot of the time the the largest person in the room or the loudest person in the room can sort of get funding and it might tend to go towards conventional approaches or or things that already have received money or have are in favor. So it is a bit of a a black box trying to navigate government funding.
SPEAKER_01:So congrats on making it happen man that's well I mean it was it's also match funding as as well.
SPEAKER_00:There you go the one to one can't escape.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly but um I your point around um you know not being eligible as a as a startup is 100% spot on because the definition of startup isn't what an actual startup is in terms of the eligibility criteria for all these grants it's it's scale up. You know they talk as you said you know oh you've got to have 20 FTE or you've got to have this amount of revenue. That's not a startup like that's just not a startup. Just to be clear yeah yeah and so you know we just didn't fit into any of those categories most of the time. But then also you know in terms of what we're doing which is really food tech we're just excluded from so many other categories you know you don't fit into a box don't fit into a box exactly you know you're excluded from ag tech you're excluded from med tech um and so we just didn't fit anywhere. And so I look this program has been great. I know another a number of other founders that are you know part of the program as as well. And it is super helpful.
SPEAKER_00:But again, you know yes one-to-one matched funding um and look I understand that you know um you know investing or providing grants to to startups is risky but you know you high risk high reward right where else are we going to get response from like where's the innovation gonna gonna come from if if you're not funding um especially when you're those startups how much money gets blown up in like pointless infrastructure projects or just like other random things where you're like wow like if we just allocated out like 1% of revenue to be able to support new and amazing ideas, it would be amazing to see what could happen. And you know from a systemic investing perspective that's something that we're really advocating for and trying to push for and we are really curious about exploring like can Coleb set up a venture studio? Can we try and find ways to fund and support startups early on so they don't need to take uh riskier forms of capital and which might no offense like you know the venture capital pathway is is is a really valid one but some companies don't want a thousand X. Some companies don't need a thousand X. Some companies just would like to be 10x or 5X or or just be a viable business that doesn't even need that sort of money. But we kind of you know we're we're fed that you know this is the path to success you know it has to be like that. It's the same with like if you go to uni, well you've got to do the PhD. It's like or you could you know get a job in the industry or do something else. But it's like everything has their own narrative and their own self-interests. And that's there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine. That's that's just what the world is like but it's acknowledging that and realizing well you don't have to just raise capital the traditional way or you don't have to just do this. And the reality is in this world we're gonna have to try and find different ways to fund and support um new ventures. And yeah I think we're really well positioned just selfishly from this perspective of collabs I think once we build up this distributed network of innovation infrastructure across Australia, then with very little funding we can start pooling together really talented people and start trying to address some of these challenges in each of their sort of bioregional contexts and and I just think that's a really exciting prospect. And you know I I wish we already had something like this up and running so that we could be you know working closely with you on it. Because like we absolutely love what you're doing as you know and would like back it until the cows come home. For good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah that's it. No you're 100% right though.
SPEAKER_00:I mean the venture capital model doesn't work for most businesses and most industries and it's made for technical it's not made for deep tech where it's a scientific breakthroughs and things might take 15 years. Yeah I feel like a lot of those high profile failures come from folks trying to force something being what it is not yet. And I understand why I empathize why they're having to do that because they've got$25 million from people who are like every day like so like is it done yet? Yeah where where's my money? Where's my money? Like you told me it was going to be done. It's like yeah I wrote your business plan but like it's kind of like the way that I think it was kind of like um astrology. You know it's like you write this five year business plan. I mean it's it's not a science you know it's like it's it's an idea of what it might be like and you're selling that vision and the reality is that 95% of that's probably pointless. Like a lot of what we do is very much like emergent strategy or things will just pop up or you have to kind of address it in the moment. And yeah it's good to have this idea of where you're heading towards but the reality is like in these sort of spaces you don't know what the path is. That's right. Two years down the track you might go whole crap you know what someone's just created a because I know like one of the major roadblocks for um and we can definitely we can go there because I'd love to talk to you about what's happening in the space but one of the major roadblocks was um medium right so that's like a big thing like it's really expensive to get um media a culture culture media because initially it was all made for scientists doing research and not like bulk bulk bulk. And it was also using like fetal bovine serum. It's not great. You know now we've got places like um the Katie Bishante's startup I think are doing a an alternative I think I'm not sure if you know yeah yeah um but like you know and something like that to be able to bring the cost of that right down we might make you know this product price parity with with others. So there's so many things like that that just happen and um and I guess I'd love to know like what are some things that have recently been happening in the space or adjacent spaces which are going to have a either a like a like a positive impact you think on cultivated meat as a sector?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's a it's a great question. I want to circle back to the grant funding in a minute as do it as well.
SPEAKER_00:But we can we can we can loop back there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah yeah look I there's there is a lot going on in in the space. Unfortunately we've seen a few companies you know go by the wayside but as I said you know perhaps that technology was you know not right for the the the application that it was was intended. But yeah I mean cell culture media you know is a huge one it's the it's the largest input cost in terms of you know us developing um a product um bringing the cost down um for the components in the in the cell culture media um is a real driver and there's a number of companies working on on that um as you mentioned one of the really interesting things though that's happened is that you know a lot of um you know you know a lot of stuff we purchased particularly in in the early stages um was farma from pharmaceutical companies and so developed for you know therapeutics and and that sort of thing um from these really large companies um that you know were not selling a lot of them and were charging you know really high prices. You know, whereas you know what we're doing, you know, typically we need um you know a lot more. So you know we need larger quantities of of media, we need larger quantities of the components within the media, larger quantities of bioreactors for example, consumables for example and so which is kind of the opposite in terms of the the the model we need you know um higher volume and at a lower cost. And so for us you know and particularly for a lot of those companies in our industry that raised a lot of money you know early on and really didn't have any other choice but to purchase you know for example bioreactors or medium of their own yeah that exactly that's that's the alternative. But you know we're f forced to pay these really high um prices for you know equipment so their capital expenditure is huge. And you know spent all of that money on on these facilities that you know potentially are not um currently operational but that you know they really didn't have a have a choice. So that money's been spent well what's happened you know there's been smaller um providers or or direct manufacturers that have seen the opportunity you know in the cultivated meat space um you know where they produce or manufacture let's say just use bioreactors as an example you know they manufacture the bioreactors that go to the pharma companies that you know stick a label on them and they sold at high prices. Well these because the pharma companies didn't want to you know did not didn't want to deal with this but couldn't get their head around you know what what we were doing and opportunity. Yeah it exactly it's you know it's a different model. They've got different sales targets and you know um you know ability to you know negotiate on price and you know the pricing model and all that sort of thing. Well you know a lot of these manufacturers have well they've seen the opportunity they're like oh hang on they've all these people want to you know buy this media or or buy these bioreactors but you know it doesn't need to be at you know pharmaceutical grade they're looking for food grade um and they can produce them you know en masse at a tenth of the price if not lower than than what everyone was paying previously um and so they're they're all now selling direct to the direct to the customer being us you know in terms of media in terms of bioreactors in terms of consumables and so you know this this perception that still you know pervades today of you know oh you know it's you've got this massive capital expenditure and it's really expensive and our media is really it just it's just not true.
SPEAKER_00:It's just not true at all. Just repeating what they heard you know three to four to five years ago exactly like anyone knows in tech and what's fascinating about biotech in particular is like when you look at Moore's law like that was for semiconductors when you look at it for biology it's actually like even more like is it superlinear or superlinear? I can't remember the word you're the math guy. I'm just gonna say pronounced it's even more pronounced for 100%. So I I'm curious like and we don't have to use actual numbers maybe we can just use ratios or something like that. But I'd be curious to know what the initial cost of doing things were versus like where you're at now and whether or not that's like a 5, 10 X difference or whether it's even more like I'm really curious like because that's something that yeah I you don't we don't hear about because usually it's like oh it's you hear about the negative things but I'd be curious to see yeah is it where are you at with that yeah well I mean the two biggest costs I mean if you talk about capital expenditure it's it's bioreactors so what the what the cells go in.
SPEAKER_01:Um you know uh a a reactor that uh would have cost and still does cost from a pharmaceutical company you know two and a half million dollars we can buy for$200,000. So it it's it it's not even close.
SPEAKER_00:And then I just don't understand I don't understand that. I don't understand that. I don't know how it can be such a discrepancy.
SPEAKER_01:Because that that price is not the price of what it costs to to make that's just the price it could be sold at right price maximization.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah but this is the issue as well and and this again like bringing it back to I guess the the need for a systemic approach and systems innovation and the that there are perverse incentives it's like so many of those people are either selling to pharma who are making bajillions of dollars like that's a literal um that's a real quantity um or academia who if they don't spend their money then you know oh well it's not great and for them a lot of time it's like the more money you spend the better it sounds we bought this 2.5 million dollar bioreactor how amazing is that you know um whereas yeah in the in in industry facing side of things it's like how like how am I supposed to do that? I can't do that. Like that's suicide buying that sort of bioreactor. Yeah. Have you seen any just before I know you I know you want to loop back to the grant funding. Yeah. Yeah but before we loop back there I just wanted to know like have you seen any innovations in like so we're talking about purchasing items has anyone started doing product as a service system models for bioreactors? Like kind of like how Colabs is hey come and you know get a membership and use the space is there anyone who's doing hey come and get a membership and use our bioreactors or is it still like I mean I know we're talking to people trying to push to make something like that happen so that we can have a space for people to experiment with bioreactors.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think we're doing all right with a couple of folks I won't name anything but um yeah is seeing anything like that similar but but not exactly so obviously um you know when it comes back to the conversation around managing money you know we've had a lot of trial bioreactors you know where a company will give you uh a reactor to to trial you know see how you see how you go with it obviously they want to eventually you know sell it to you and you'll you know use it on ongoing um so we've had that experience with a with a number of companies um which is which is great which it's the way it should be like you need to be able to use something before you decide to to buy it particularly when it's you know a large um value um purchase um there are in terms of bioreactors you know there are Uh uh a couple uh at least now companies that are looking at subscription type models. Interesting. Yeah. So, you know, again, you know, Is that media as well uh or just the reactors so far that I've come across in terms of, you know, here's this um reactor you pay, you know, I'll just make up this number, um, you know,$1,000 a month, you know, subscription fee to use the reactor. Um, you know, and there might be like the uh you know the opportunity to you know purchase at the end of the term or something.
SPEAKER_00:Like a Chatel mortgage.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. Yeah, as a as opposed to, you know, oh it's gonna cost you know$200,000 up front. You can and you know, it's it's like a l exactly like a lease agreement type thing. Um so we've seen that starting to, but that's not coming from the pharma companies. That's coming from you know smaller startups who are like, oh, this would be a better model for you know what what you need.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is really interesting how like, yeah, uh, I can't remember who said it. It's like um, but sometimes, at least in in in science, it's like worldviews shift like one death at a time. And it also feels like a a lot of times like if a company only knows one way and that's how they've been successful their whole life, you almost can't really blame them for being that way. And it's kind of like you don't expect them to be that way, it's just like in a bucky fuller way, it's like just wait for someone who's gonna design a new system that makes that one obsolete, or who has designed it to fit your ecological niche rather than trying to panda to folks who are kind of like you know, not even like just over the head, but like out of the stratosphere over the head. Um so okay, that's cool. I'm glad that that's starting to is there anything else before we loop back to grant funding? Because I know you want to go there. Is there anything else like things happening in the space that you think are pretty exciting? I mean, obviously for Zans, um, you know, we had the approval with Vow's products. Yeah. Um, have you heard anything from your end?
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, not particularly. We had uh for sans out here a few weeks ago and uh they did a taste you weren't around because you don't come in here anymore. But um don't don't bring that up. We did a tasting for them, which went went really well. Um uh no no no feedback I can give on on in terms of Magic Valley, but in terms of for sans, um, you know, they're adding resources uh to a dedicated uh cellular agriculture pathway within the novel food framework, which is bringing um the timeline down uh and the cost down, both by about half to what it was previously. So that's that's great for the entire industry to fast-track those applications and for it to be cheaper as well. I mean, free would be great, but cheaper is better than um what it was before. Um so like they're super open. And I guess there's a there's this misconception, particularly in Australia, around, you know, how difficult uh and political it is in terms of getting a cultivated meat product regulated. I mean, the regulator's role really is to assess the safety of the of the product, you know, toxicology, microbiology, is this safe to consume? You know, what are the allergens? What are the risks, etc.? It's not for sans's role is not to be um, you know, political or or you know uh to to push down one industry. It's to assess the safety of of the product for for human consumption. And so for sans have been great to deal with the the entire time that um uh I've been working on on Magic Valley. And um that that continues to be the case. They're very consultative, you know, they want to see more novel food applications, more cellular agriculture products get approved. And basically, you know, they make a recommendation that goes to the food minister, and then you know, the food minister makes a decision on um you know the recommendation from Fasan. So that's actually how it works. And so um, yeah, they've they've been they've been great to deal with. So there's as you said, there's some movement in that space uh at the moment, um, which is yeah, really positive.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Now, do you want to loop back to the grant funding?
SPEAKER_01:I will the other thing I'll mention before we loop back to that was around um media media costs, which you know, as you mentioned before, you know, we would have paid um, you know, maybe you paid, you know, a few years ago, you pay off the shelf, you know, six hundred dollars a litre for cell culture media.
SPEAKER_00:I remember back in the day, you were like, that's probably like a ten thousand dollar dumpling. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly exactly, you know. Um, you know, but for us, um, you know, today, you know, you'd be looking at six or seven dollars a litre with, you know, still plans to bring that down to a dollar a litre, you know, at scale. And so And that was your number.
SPEAKER_00:So just like just I don't think it's if you can say it so casually, but that's a six, how many thousand percent reduction? What? You said it was six or seven hundred dollars for a liter down to six dollars, and then hopefully down to one. Yeah. Like that's if they manage to do that, that's like a six thousand percent reduction in four or five years. Yeah, and we're not even like working hard on it.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's just it's just you know what you had to pay early on, you know, you do some you do some um media optimization. But then there's other, as I said, there's other companies that are producing the um the components of the media at just far cheaper prices. And so um that's literally with us hardly doing any any work on on the media side of things. And so, you know, again, when people go, oh, media is really expensive and bioactors are really they're not. Like they're just not. Anyway, um back to the the grant funding side of thing, I wanted to mention as well, we um uh you might have heard of an organization by the name of Voiceless, and they make um you know basically charitable you know donations to organizations, but we actually received um the first uh investment grant from from Voiceless as well. Who are in the animal protection space. Yeah, so we're really um you know rapt to to receive that and receive their support. But then going um the other thing I really wanted to mention, you know, around you know alternative funding options um is we we utilize the uh research and development tax incentive really heavily as well. And you know, a lot of people complain about you know government funding and that sort of thing. But in Australia, like that's a huge benefit to us and most other companies.
SPEAKER_00:Do you hear about, I don't know, uh apparently at bio, Andrew is at bio, apparently there was talk about people being like, oh, we're a little bit over budget with the RD tax incentive. Oh, not sure if we're gonna. I mean, if they if they scrap that, like there's entire so many companies that's like essential. You rely on it 100%. Especially when there's not that much else out there. Um and it just feels like the the number one amazing thing that was really thoughtful, you know, and I can't believe, I mean, just I don't reckon they would but like, damn, like let's fingers and toes crossed. Um I reckon it'll I reckon it'll stay in. Um it's such a useful I I I believe so.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I was involved in a workshop around it um many months ago now, and and the the people that um some of the complaints around it were from much larger companies. So, you know, like these multinational companies that have got you know millions, if not billions, in revenue and they don't like how the program works for this tiny bit of like RD that they actually do. Whereas to companies like us who are basically all RD at this stage, um, it's crucial for being able to operate. And if we talk about even more alternative sources of of funding, you know, I most people probably don't know about this that you know aren't in the space, but there are companies that will um provide finance to you based on your future RD return. And so again, that's another way of um uh you know leveraging your your future return for you know cash flow purposes as well. You can get that money in today that you were gonna get in your return, you know, August or whenever you file your tax return, you know, you can get that today. Let's say it's whatever it is now, October still.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, October. Five percent interest or I don't know what the interest.
SPEAKER_01:I mean the interest is not great. Like, don't get me wrong. Like you don't like you don't want to be paying that interest, but that brings that forward. So you've got that cash today, liquidity. You'll spend more on your RD, so you'll get an even bigger return when it comes to the to the rebate. I didn't think of the double loop. That's exactly how it works. And so, you know, we've done that a couple of times as as well. But um, yeah, the the there's these things that you know outside um you wouldn't think about. Like it is an alternative, you know, funding source and and and way to bring to bring your cash flow uh to the present day.
SPEAKER_00:Man, I'm yeah, I'm just so impressed with like your ability to navigate that space and figure out ways to make it work. I think um I it's it really is admira admirable. It's kind of like the only way that I can think of putting it because you've really like I know for a fact that you have you you've searched the entire landscape, you know, you're you're foraging for finances and figuring out ways in which you can make it work. And yeah, I feel like I don't know if any startups or people are curious about it all. I feel like you're such a good person to be able to tap on the shoulder and talk through that entire process.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I've uh yeah, I think I've explored almost all of the options. I'm sure there's some out there that I you know we can still uh utilize. But yeah, I mean, but I I mean I also come from a finance background as well. So, you know, I think I've got a bit of an unfair advantage there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, fair enough. No, makes sense. But as I said, like I think it it is an unfair advantage, and I do I feel like, yeah, sure, like the mission is really important, but I do feel like that's such a big, big area that's meant that you've been able to like kind of aikido your way through what's been like a really hectic sort of year and a half innovation. Um yeah, man, what else? Is there anything anything else worth having to yarn about while we've well managed to pin you down?
SPEAKER_01:Um we can talk about how great Colabs is and all the things that are going on here.
SPEAKER_00:This is not a marketing pitch for collabs, but is there anything that you've found really interesting or any cool like any new members that you're like, hey, that's pretty cool, or anything.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, well, I mean, as you mentioned, you know, obviously, you know, particularly for us, you know, we've got Salag Australia here, which is is really great to have them, you know, close by. Um, Pythag Tech is as well, who we're got a collaboration with in terms of you know machine learning and AI and um you know all the stuff that we're doing. Um I think a few of us have um uh you know shared some some resources as as well uh between all of us. But you know, we even you know we're very close to to Cortical as well, and we're not doing anything remotely similar, but using similar cell types, and there's a lot of knowledge sharing and and stuff that goes on too. I mean, there's heaps of other companies that um we do talk to as well. Um but just as you said, this like this ecosystem and having the environment to talk to people, whether it's over lunch, you know, whether it's in the in the kitchen or you know, you're out getting coffee or you know, without having this here, you're just siloed and there's just no opportunity for that um to occur. Um, not to mention all the help that that you give us as as well in terms of providing the facility to begin with, but just um, you know, in terms of um the the the moral support as well. Um yeah, I'm I'm forever grateful for. Um but then also watching like your journey as well at Colabs in terms of like the multiple sites and like I know how hard that is from you know previous visits I've had. It's a nightmare, it's an absolute nightmare. So um that's been super impressive and uh and inspiring to to watch as well in terms of um you know the growth of um you know collabs, you know, yourself and and Andrew, um, and and also what's on the the horizon as as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean that was the first time I realized that um quantum physics does not apply to the level of reality which we exist, um, despite what other people might tell you. You definitely can't be in two places at one time. Yeah. I've tried. Um yeah, so it is it has been really hectic and it's it's been very financially taxing having two sites up and running. I mean, just for like scales sake, like this site is I don't know, like 850 square across three warehouses in Brunswick, whereas down there that's like close to like 3,200 square of space. So it's like you know, order of magnitude larger. Um, and obviously that comes with an order of magnitude larger outcomings per month. So it's been really painful, but we've been, you know, people are coming through now more and more and more. There's only like a hundred square of space left in the um upstairs area and plenty of room in the in the co-working lab, but it's just nice to feel it come to life and it feels more like Brunswick. When I was down there the other day, I'm like, oh wow, it really feels like I was in Brunswick, and everyone in the team knows that means that you never really get anything you thought you were gonna get done in the day because you're getting dragged out helping other people with all these other things. I feel like we're we're constantly in a loop of like, oh, can you help with this? And like, oh, this uh delivery of this packages has come, but you know, amidst that chaos is the the magic or the jazz of being a part of innovation as it happens, and it yeah, it's a it's a really nice thing. Um, but it yeah, it does it did feel like for the first six months, I was kind of down there. I'm like, oh, this is great. I'm isolated, I can just like focus on work, you know. Um, whereas it feels like now it's really stepping up. Um yeah. Sweet. Is there anything else? I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we that's worth having a chat about.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we're still just working on a number of uh different products at the moment. We've got some um uh some really strong collaborations that that that we're working on. And yeah, just just pushing forward. We um we have a lot of uh friends in the alternative protein space that are been working on some some really great things as as well. So, you know, hopefully, you know, across the the entire sector, you know, we can see some um positive. I mean, I can't believe it's October or I really don't know where this year's gone. So I was about to say, hopefully we can see some things this year. It's not gonna be this year, it's gonna be next year now.
SPEAKER_00:Things are gonna wrap up over the next little bit, but it's it's nice that things are wrapping up and you're still here, still persevering, still making stuff happen, still serving up delicious dumplings. Hey, you've um there's multiple cell lines you're working on now as well. Because I feel like it was just pork, but now there's also beef. No? No. What was it?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. No, we've got lamb. Lamb. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We've got lamb. Yes. I need so there is two cell lines.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, we've definitely got two uh up and going. Uh, but we are working on some some others. Um yeah, we're hopefully like this time next year we'll we'll have we'll have multiple other species slash products that we've developed. So yeah, always in the same, always in the same technology platform. But um, yeah, beef could be one of them. You like Nostradamus over there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, what a what a what a what a public reveal. Um sweet man. Well, thanks so much for letting me bail you up for a chat again. It's always a pleasure, and it's um yeah, it's been so lovely watching you do everything that you do and building out the team and being a part of the community. So for that, thank you. Um and yeah, let's let's hope that the next Christmas party we can have some MV stuff out and about. Fingers crossed. Yeah, it's good to see you. About time you uh come down to Brunswick. I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. All right. Well, um, sick. I think that should do us. Cool. Thanks. Maybe thanks so much for tuning in again to another episode of The Strange Attractor. Uh, we hope you enjoyed this conversation. Um and yeah, if there's anything you would like us to cover, anyone who'd like us to get on, drop us a line, let us know. Uh for 2026, my god, I can't believe I'm saying that out loud, we will be expanding our horizons for the podcast and looking to integrate some folks from around the world, uh, maybe a couple of virtual podcasts and that sort of stuff, to tap into the wider network of folks who are interested in uh bio-led futures, uh regenerative development and design, uh new forms of governance and innovation to support bioregional development, uh more holistic forms of education, all these sorts of fun things to try and yeah, I guess bring a bit of awareness to it and see how that can be applied into an Australian context. Uh, so if that's something you're interested in, stay tuned. Thanks so much, guys, and hope you have a lovely rest of the day, night, morning, whatever it is, wherever you are around the world. Thank you.
